[BUG-37795] Severe performance issues in all Second Life viewers after installing KB3176938 (Windows Version 1607 Build 14393.105). Problem continues with KB3189866, KB3193494 & KB3194496 #12102
Comments
Ansariel Hiller commented at 2016-09-06T18:04:26Z Since apparently the only way to report bugs for normal Windows users is to use the Feedback tool which then also shows reports of other users using the same language version as oneself and this being a rather cumbersome way without unknown outcome, it would probably be more effective if Linden Lab seeks contact with Microsoft and inform them of the apparent issue with the latest update so Microsoft can start working on a fix. |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-06T18:30:04Z Another way to reproduce the severe drop in fps is to cam around the sim a lot (alt+ arrow keys or left mouse button held down) and hit escape a few times to return camera to behind your avie. Now notice the drop in fps and the difficulty in moving around. Fast fix is to relog (I have only used Firestorm), and the ultimate workaround is to uninstall KB31769318. |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-06T18:39:15Z Could someone with switchable graphics switch to on-board graphics, likely Intel, temporarily and see if the problem still occurs? Has anyone with AMD graphics experienced the issue? |
Whirly Fizzle commented at 2016-09-06T18:43:43Z, updated at 2016-09-06T18:44:23Z Firestorm has seen users with AMD graphics also affected by this bug. Example:
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ObviousAltIsObvious commented at 2016-09-06T19:18:27Z, updated at 2016-09-08T05:29:51Z @nicky Perian: yes, at least I can repro this with AMD 7700-7900 cards. Same as some Nvidia users have reported, disabling VBO can partially mitigate but the slowdown is still there. (And yeah, in this case removing and hiding KB3176938 also does put everything back to normal.) Adding sysinfo late; this is one machine it repro'd on but I've since backed out the broken MS update. Second Life 4.1.1.318504 (Second Life Release)
Release Notes
CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) 8650 Triple-Core Processor (2310.5 MHz)
Memory: 4095 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 8 64-bit (Build 9200) compatibility mode. real ver: 10.0 (Build 10586)
Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Graphics Card: AMD Radeon HD 7700 Series
Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1474
OpenGL Version: 4.2.13447 Compatibility Profile Context 16.300.2511.1003
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.2
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Ex 4.44.31
LLCEFLib/CEF Version: 1.5.3-(CEF-WIN-3.2526.1347-32)
LibVLC Version: 2.2.4
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
September 07 2016 21:28:24 |
Soft Linden commented at 2016-09-06T21:39:36Z Per https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12387/windows-10-update-history there is no indication that KB3176938 contains security fixes. This update is also held back by activating the Windows 10 option to opt out of experimental updates. It should be safe to opt out of this update until Microsoft issues a fix. If you aren't yet having the problem you can avoid becoming the next victim. Open Windows settings, "Update & Security," "Windows Update," "Advanced options," and check "Defer upgrades" to only receive updates that are either widely tested or important for security reasons. |
Ansariel Hiller commented at 2016-09-06T21:50:24Z Hi Soft! Is Linden Lab planning to contact Microsoft about this issue so they are at least aware of it? It will have much more impact if Linden Lab reports it rather than a simple Windows 10 user. |
Soft Linden commented at 2016-09-06T21:56:20Z I don't know if contact has already been made or if it's still coming up. That sits with a different team, but yes that's the plan. |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-06T22:42:06Z, updated at 2016-09-06T22:48:41Z Unfortunately Windows 10 HOME users, like myself cannot Defer Upgrades .. Windows 10 Professional, Enterprise, and Education edition customers can choose to defer Windows updates." I can only choose to join the Windows Insider Program (which get Insider Preview Builds – Be one of the first to see future updates and improvements to Windows and provide feedback ) OR NOT join (that's me). KB3176938 made the RELEASE track , so all the MS WIPers failed to catch this bug. I had to uninstall the update PLUS run the Windows 10 Update Share/Hide (wushowhide.diagcab) tool and select KB3176938 by name to stop it from being Installed again. |
Ansariel Hiller commented at 2016-09-06T22:47:58Z You can use the "Show or hide updates troubleshooter" tool for this: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930 |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-06T23:06:06Z Just wondering how many non-tech savvy Windows 10 Home SL users are even aware of the BUG and what to do about it. I did everything (clean Firestorm install , updated graphic drivers etc. to no avail UNTIL I decided to check The Firestorm JIRA (thank you guys)and saw this issue near the top. It might be helpful to include an entry on the SL Grid status page https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Status-Grid/bg-p/status-blog AND somewhere on The Firestorm website. Spread the word, and hope that first time new SL users don't encounter the FPS slowdown and decide SL too laggy, "I'm out of here" and quit. |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-06T23:28:30Z, updated at 2016-09-07T00:34:52Z Interesting that now the webpage for the Show or hide updates troubleshooter" tool gives an ERROR when trying to access it. Either the page is getting hammered OR MS has deliberately disabled it. Curious |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-06T23:46:20Z Here is a direct link to the Windows Update Show/Hide troubleshooter tool http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/2/2/F22D5FDB-59CD-4275-8C95-1BE17BF70B21/wushowhide.diagcab |
Trager Alter commented at 2016-09-07T01:02:56Z I uninstalled KB3176938 and this problem is gone in Firestorm. I did not have this problem with the Linden Lab viewer and used it until i heard of this fix. Now back to FS. |
Grumpity Linden commented at 2016-09-07T21:46:50Z Contact has been made. Microsoft is investigating. |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-07T23:31:27Z I have been watching this for several days on the FS Jira and here and have yet to see a repro from SL default viewer or FS 32bit viewer. |
Whirly Fizzle commented at 2016-09-08T00:20:59Z I guess you must have not read all the posts then.
https://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Second-Life-Tech/Framerate-Dropoff-and-Ping-Increase-After-a-Few-Minutes/m-p/3064015/highlight/true#M5101 |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-08T00:47:01Z, updated at 2016-09-08T00:53:35Z @wirly
How can 20 minutes viewer out of focus be considered a normal user operating pattern? I agree with all the reports that it is a valid problem, especially for those involved. I just think it needs to be narrowed to the graphics processor in use. |
StarlightShining commented at 2016-09-08T00:53:40Z @ Nicky - where in Whirly's quotes does it say it was 20 mins out of focus? It said it took 20 mins for the fps drop to occur.. n ot that it was 20 mins out of focus |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-08T01:11:47Z If I understand the problem correctly and I have been wrong before; It is remove focus away from the viewer to another application and keep both app windows open and watch for the fps to drop abnormally to say 3-5 fps and then return focus to the viewer and the fps does not recover. |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-08T01:43:56Z One thing folks might want to try is Fixed Bit Anti-Idle HUD or an equal. I have used it before when wanting to keep the viewer |
ObviousAltIsObvious commented at 2016-09-08T01:50:11Z To be clear, switching to another window isn't even always necessary to trigger this bug, it's just a convenient way to get a repro started. |
Ansariel Hiller commented at 2016-09-08T16:08:51Z @nickyp: Your attempts trying to talk this into a Firestorm-only issue are quite amusing since it affects different OpenGL applications as well, no matter if an ATI or nvidia GPU is used. |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-08T18:09:05Z @Ansariel: I'm not that stupid. The evidence is overwhelming that it isn't a Firestorm only issue. The first thing in troubleshooting is to define the problem. I don't think a rollback is a move to define the problem. It's kinda like "clear the cache" defines a problem. My point is there has been no root cause analysis done and the rollback is only an element of that. If the hardware/driver configuration causes the problem then it stands to reason that every viewer with SL code base comprising 99 percent, would under that configuration likely trigger the same thing. From the MS thread you opened. User v-4abrew reported;
Since it is the same system as mine I'll try it as I have AU in the today's update queue. |
Malic Tolsen commented at 2016-09-08T21:29:06Z I left a comment about this on the Firestorm JIRA as well, but I was able to stop this issue when I disabled the windows store update service... my only problem was it re-enabled after every reboot, so I removed the store fully from my computer and have not had this FPS loss issue since. |
Nicky Perian commented at 2016-09-09T02:32:02Z Report on my Windows 10 Anniversary Update and subsequent KB3176936 update. Using the hint above about using CCleaner I did the following: You are at 131.0, 135.8, 23.1 in Mesh Sandbox 1 located at sim10006.aditi.lindenlab.com (216.82.48.76:13008) CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4710HQ CPU @ 2.50GHz (2498.54 MHz) Windows Graphics Driver Version: 10.18.0015.4281 J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.2 Packets Lost: 2/2,969 (0.1%) You are at 128.0, 128.0, 23.1 in Mesh Sandbox 1 located at sim10006.aditi.lindenlab.com (216.82.48.76:13008) CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4710HQ CPU @ 2.50GHz (2498.55 MHz) Windows Graphics Driver Version: 10.18.0015.4281 J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.4.0, Runtime: 1.4.0 Built with MSVC version 1800 Ran these viewers side by side for 30 minutes switching between them and there was no slowdown. |
Whirly Fizzle commented at 2016-09-09T05:25:15Z Unsure if this is the same problem, but KB3176938 is also causing Open Broadcaster Software to freeze: https://obsproject.com/forum/threads/bug-obs-preview-freezes-and-terminates-the-stream-capture.54072/ |
Kasumi Hayashi commented at 2016-09-09T08:18:02Z, updated at 2016-09-09T11:45:17Z i've been affected by this issue as well, though not specifically when the window loses focus, and it seems to only happen in areas with a lot of activity. it could be running fine for as little as 5 minutes to up to an hour, but the performance will eventually tank to unplayable levels and require a relog. i tested to make sure this wasn't my pc thoroughly, including running a memory diagnostic and clean installing my graphics drivers. |
Grumpity Linden commented at 2016-09-09T17:53:53Z Kasumi, you will need to uninstall the KB3176938 Windows update until this issue is resolved by Microsoft in order to return SL behavior to normal. |
Kasumi Hayashi commented at 2016-09-10T01:36:07Z thank you, i did, i forgot to mention that in the post. i was just throwing in my two cents that the issue is happening to me as well, and meant to imply that reverting away from the update fixed it for me as well. |
MBeatrix commented at 2016-09-29T16:47:15Z That is good, Whirly, thanks for the heads-up. It is good for me, that is, but what about other GPU's? Quite some people say it's not only nVidia based cards that are being affected... |
Julia Umarov commented at 2016-09-29T20:59:42Z Just that no one else wastes time on trying, KB3194496 does not fix the bug. |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-09-29T21:31:10Z Thanks for the headsup about this NEW "update" KB3194496. I checked that it hadn't downloaded (or installed) yet, since the auto check for new updates isn't scheduled till later tonight . Just on a whim, I decided to run Windows Update Show/Hide (wushowhide.diagcab) and check first Hidden Updates, hmmm nothing there.. Then I ran it again to Hide Updates and amazingly KB3194496 (the latest cumulative update) was listed and waiting for me to place a check in the checkbox. Done ! Now I have been spared the whole download install/uninstall restart procedure. |
Eddi Decosta commented at 2016-10-05T16:20:58Z, updated at 2016-10-05T16:27:40Z Well after an awnser of nvidia customer service, i can said its fixed for me; in few step. You can try to do this. From the problem description, I understand that there is a drastic drop in FPS on the second life game I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please be assured that I will do my best to help you. As a part of troubleshooting, please try following the below steps and check if that helps: First ensure that all the windows updates are installed and Below are the changes that you can make in the NVIDIA Control Panel for the game(s): a) Right click on the desktop and launch NVIDIA Control Panel --> Manage 3D settings. Please check if this helps If issue persists, then to analyze the issue better and to determine the cause for the problem, I will need additional information: Please let us know if this happens on all the games or on few games? if on only few games let us know the game titles Was it working fine earlier? if it was working fine earlier then try installing this driver 368.81 driver from the below mentioned steps and check
this is after the setting: https://i.gyazo.com/719712d838a98594f13940f38e056cf3.jpg |
Liffento Eldritch commented at 2016-10-05T20:00:45Z, updated at 2016-10-05T20:05:32Z I tried those settings in the nVidia control panel and it did not work. after awhile the fps would just die on me. Also it was announced that nVidia was working on a fix so there should be one coming out soon. Also defer updates doesn't stop cumulative updates it seems. |
Eddi Decosta commented at 2016-10-05T20:30:16Z Liffento; you can try this setting depending the card you have i have a gtx 550 ti and it work very well; |
Avariel Falcon commented at 2016-10-06T07:44:05Z Tried that Eddi Decosta but it does not make any difference. Still waiting on the fix from nVidia. |
Diana Ivory commented at 2016-10-06T10:03:28Z John Wink [MSFT] @johnwinkmsft 4. Okt. @Pawpatine @bikemanAMD @lkeels @mariodonick @FlapXplane Pending NVIDIA for their fix, still digging on AMD. Thx! 2Days ago ... comeone Nvidia !!! |
Gencho Hamelin commented at 2016-10-06T13:45:22Z The newest driver by NVidia (373.06) fixed the problem for me, yay! |
prototypeav commented at 2016-10-06T16:28:53Z, updated at 2016-10-06T20:07:40Z The NVidia 373.06 drivers seem to help my framerate problem, but Second Life is still very laggy in the Windows 10 Insider Preview. |
Trager Alter commented at 2016-10-06T17:12:44Z allowed win 10 cumulative update KB3194496 to install - updated nvidea driver to newest 373.06 - hoping this will fix the problem - need to test at live music event with lots of avatars at a venue |
Gator Peterman commented at 2016-10-06T17:29:16Z The NVidia 373.06 drivers released today seemed to solve the FPS drop problem I could only download it when choosing USA as location, other countries still gave the 372 driver as latest. |
ginormous.woodget commented at 2016-10-06T18:21:24Z Installed the new Nvidia driver and re-installed KB3194496, and Firestorm seems to have the usual FPS for my system. |
prototypeav commented at 2016-10-06T20:06:46Z, updated at 2016-10-08T15:14:30Z After the latest Windows 10 Insider Preview build and the latest Nvidia drivers, the performance issues seem to be fixed in the Windows 10 Insider Preview. |
Shadoskill Heckroth commented at 2016-10-06T20:20:13Z Just re enabled window update service, installed Nvidia (373.06) and let windows run its updates. Getting 80 fps currently on mainland, shift focus to a different app on a secondary monitor and SL dropped to 10fps (like it should) and when I refocus it jump back to 80fps like normal. |
Aurelius Fhang commented at 2016-10-07T01:47:48Z Commenting to confirm the latest Nvidia update (373.06) fixed the issue. |
Liffento Eldritch commented at 2016-10-07T03:19:13Z Same here. Installed the latest nVidia driver, 373.06, and reinstalled the cumulative updates and have been running good all day with no issues. The driver release notes shows these fixes for windows 10: Windows 10 Fixed Issues |
Willow Wilder commented at 2016-10-07T03:22:02Z For anyone affected using ATI/AMD graphics refer to http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/Radeon-Software-Crimson-Edition-16-10-1-Release-Notes.aspx released October 5, 2016 and report back would be appreciated. |
Trager Alter commented at 2016-10-09T03:26:15Z tested newest nvidea driver 373.06 at several music events with lots of avs and problem solved - yay |
Grumpity Linden commented at 2016-10-13T18:15:36Z Closing as NMI until we hear from some ATI users. nVidia problems appear to be resolved. Thanks all, for the comments, repeated experiments and feedback! |
ObviousAltIsObvious commented at 2016-11-05T12:40:36Z The remainder of this problem is fixed with KB3201209 (currently an insider update, but should be hitting real Windows 10 soon enough). This part of the problem isn't really specific to OpenGL, it's a more general performance problem when VRAM gets close to full. It happened to start with the same update as the OpenGL-specific problems, so it was kind of a double whammy. |
Whirly Fizzle commented at 2016-11-05T13:47:29Z Great! |
Janeke Frugel commented at 2016-12-28T12:26:19Z Hi guys, Again someone with the same problem in FPS drop. Second Life 5.0.0.321958 (Second Life Release) Windows Graphics Driver Version: 20.19.0015.4531 J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.2 Packets Lost: 0/13,729 (0.0%)
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Theresa Tennyson commented at 2016-12-28T16:52:50Z Janeke, your Nvidia drivers are several versions out of date. The problem you're seeing is fixed in newer drivers. |
Janeke Frugel commented at 2016-12-31T16:41:46Z HI Theresa... YAY.... its Fixed. |
Connor Nowles commented at 2017-05-08T19:57:27Z, updated at 2017-05-08T20:01:13Z For me the problem is not fixed. |
Grumpity Linden commented at 2017-05-09T17:07:51Z Hi Connor, thanks for that very detailed report. Quick question - have you tried to set your Texture Memory to 2048? Thanks! |
Connor Nowles commented at 2017-05-09T18:34:10Z Thanks for the reply.. :-) |
Vir Linden commented at 2017-07-06T14:51:25Z Our apologies, it appears this jira has been a victim of a spammer. We've cleaned up the offending comments, sorry for the mess! |
VirtualKitten commented at 2019-07-10T15:50:11Z Can I suggest that there is some well known ways to speed up Windows and would recommend all SL life users take advantage of them to increase all internet speed. It seems from this article Windows can take up to 20% of your bandwidth on top of when it is downloading windows updates . If you want to go faster have a look at this article not mine but it seems helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqZsVND6KGU Windows 10 Tips & Tricks” Playlist 0:21 Internet Speed Test Speedtest by Ookla Free and Public DNS Servers WiFi Analyzer How to Enable Group Policy Editor (Windows 10 Home) I hope this helps it did mine Denise |
Steps To Reproduce
Login to Second Life on a Windows 10 system that has KB3176938 installed.
Take the viewer out of focus by task switching to a different program.
Bring the viewer back into focus and observe viewer performance.
Observed Behaviour
On many Windows 10 systems since the KB3176938 update was installed, SL viewers are suffering from severe low performance (1-2 FPS) when the viewer is brought back into focus after task switching to another program.
On some systems this problem is intermittent but on other systems it will reproduce after the viewer has lost focus for the first time in a session.
Some users have also reported that since KB3176938 was installed, running more then one Second Life viewer instance causes very low FPS whereas before KB3176938 was installed, performance when dual logged was good.
It appears this problem is affecting all OpenGL based programs, not just Second Life viewers.
Other programs known to be affected at this time include:
Runescape.
X-Plane & other flight simulators.
Dungeons & Dragons online.
http://ddo.mmmos.com/?p=view&uid=57cab1a664efe&title=after-windows-10-updates%2C-frame-rate-now-under3
Firestorm viewer bug report
http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-20034
Massive FPS drop after Viewer Window lose focus - caused by KB3176938
Microsoft community forum post
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/severe-performance-issues-in-firestorm-viewer/3cb682b1-42f7-4ce0-932b-2535d58fb8d8?page=1
Inara Pey's blog post
https://modemworld.me/2016/09/06/windows-10-opengl-issue-affecting-some-second-life-users/
I have linked several reports about this problem to this issue.
Workaround
Once performance has dropped due to this bug, you must relog the viewer to restore performance.
The only known workaround at this time is to uninstall KB3176938 on affected systems.
http://www.howtogeek.com/235474/how-to-roll-back-builds-and-uninstall-updates-on-windows-10/
So far uninstalling KB3176938 has fixed everyone reporting this problem.
Attachments
Original Jira Fields
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