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hasuko kuramoto added a comment - 15/Apr/09 04:25 AM
i too am affected by this change in search. i am finding that my search ranking has been compromised by people gaming the system y creating smaller parcels and simply repeating on or two critical keywords over and over to push their businesses up. this is precisely what the search all using google was supposed to avoid, as i was led to believe.
This has also affected my store. I used to be on page 1 of the ALL search tab using my preferred keyword search and now I am knowwhere to be found.
I also want to point out that my ranking was achieved fairly and I have NEVER used Bots to game traffic. The way search ALL works now seems to be totally random and shops such as myself who actually sell what they say they do are now even harder to find. I would like a Linden employee to come out and confirm that the engine was altered as a drop from page 1 in the search ranking to ...well oblivion, is just not right and this is also having a serious effect on my ability to keep my customer traffic where it used to be. Absolutely Kittrannia, why was there no informations that a) changes will be made and b) what has changed and what hw shall focus on?
Makes one feel like a lab rat and this sort of unreliability is what drives people against the labs while I believe we should all pull on the same string! I cant do anything else but to agree with what has all ready been said here. I have also noticed a change and atm I cant even find myself with my top keywords.
I also agree, I have been affected by search changes. I've also been on page one of the ALL search for about a year now. I gave up trying to find my location at about page 5. The places that appear above me on my keyword search (Tattoos for example), some of the places don't even sell tattoos. One place sells 4 tattoos where I have well over 100. Looking at the place with the 4 tattoos, my traffic is higher, my group has more members, I'm in more Picks... why do they appear PAGES ahead of me? Makes no sense and has definately affected my business.
If it really was changed, then get back to the system before this. Why?
A.) Picks are the fairest system to voting for a good parcel. Also a circulation of money in the whole SL market. New SL (real) members get the chance to earn some money and find interesting places. B.) The money, time and nerves from people who are invested in this search system and create good offerings would be wasted. That is not a game or a funny joke, this are real value investments. LindenLab wrote in their TOS that they wouldn't interfere into the content market. But things like this are huge interferes into the whole inworld market. Shortly to say, you kill existences with this. C.) You are asking why the real world companies are leaving second life? Why the professional content creators stop to create content for secondlife and go to other markets? The answer is very simple. The secondlife platform is a fine web2.0 solution from technical site, but the provider change fom time to time the rules and wasting many of the real money investments. No one can say which will happend tomororrw with that software. And who one of the private investors have enough money and time to invest into an rule instable system like this? It would be better then, if you are burning your money at stove and lay yourself into the real sun. I've seen people who are loosing up to 30.000 US$ of their investments in this system. And you can be sure, they are not very amused about this. But i also think this comments will not leads to revise the determination. Not sure what has changed Id love to find out what was done? that maybe LL can give us an incite now as to what really effects the search results since this is their program, their creation THEY have to know how their stuff functions, and I think we all deserve the chance to find out what that is. Do i like seeing junk on the top search? no people who just throw in keywords even though they dont have it no. I think steph is right the new people who come to SL see that and go there and cant find crap and get discouraged and leave the game, I know I left this game 3 dang times before I had someone who would help me understand it. So please let us know what is going on, we help pay your bills.
I agree with seeing the changes in Search. ----- This month has proved to be almost daily changes in ranking...
I run a professional content creation business in Second Life for almost 4 years now. We hold a massive group approaching 4,000 people who The staging for SEARCH this April has definatly fallen. We watch SEARCH almost daily. I started noticing people who had jewelry jewelry jewelry First the slaughter of the classifieds system in 2007 with the new SEARCH... Now the Slaughter of the SEARCH Function in the viewer. Another concerned business owner. JD made a very good point about group members, there is a 25 group limit, every store has an update group now when people decide to receive your informations that implies they agree with your work. I have 5000+ group members, thousands of picks, an established store of a decent size and 24/7 support, no disrespect to competitors but where is the logic when a brandnew mall without content, no picks, no group members and no visitors is outdoing me? That certainly can't be right and probably it is time to hire an intern who adds logic to the major keywords by revieweing the place. Having said that, I find it rude when people are trying to steal keywords when they don't have the content. Maybe that should be punished in the interest of better quality?
It is more than evident a change to the search code has been made. Regardless if the change is intentful or a mere oversight, CLEARLY this change poses a major problem in regards to productivity and gamer experience. I know that player retention is one of the top 3 goals of any MMO wanting to succeed and SecondLife is no exception. Please reinstate the past search system for the greater good of all those participating in this venture.
I too have noticed a major change within the last 3 days or so - nothing was announced - I wonder what happened? I have been working very hard to better my rankings and I was gradually improving and suddenly have fallen dramatically. This is really upsetting.
i see my own results moving all over the place as well. and like was stated, little places with nothing there seem to get top listings.. its just weird. Why would someone even want to go there. I think while traffic may not be the best, spam is way worse, and irellivent. Please fix this issue
Count me in the group that respectfully requests that this search issue be changed back to the way it was. Shouldn't a change like this that will adversely affect such a large group of members be carefully tested and retested then discussed in great detail before implementation?
I believe LL made a mistake, it can't be in their interest to provide their residents with faulty results, they know it is very important for keep new residents that they can find what they search for in SL. Seems with this change (or maybe is bug, some mistake?) they hurt merchants and visitors in the same time. I hope this will be fixed by the weekend!! Someone have high place in search because they make keywords "Fashion" 20X, when really popular designer have lower place... mmmm.. Huh? This is logic? I think clear answer is "No". Pleeeease fix LL!!
There is something I'd like to say in response to Gabrielle Gateaux
No announcement has been made on something so significant for business owners and visitors. Hi,
The same goes for my store, from page 1 for my most important keyword "latex" my mainstore went to page 3 without any changes. I think it's much better if all becomes normal again, like it was before. Not only for us but also for new residents who like to find what they are looking for! I cant even find myself on the all tab... I try very hard to promote myself in the search.. I also have very diverse keywords due to the random costumes I make.. nothing!! It seems I am only on the first page for mainstore.. This is really random... and its definatly poopy! I dont even see a point to making it better untill this is fixed.. as far as I can see it is broken atm... places are duplicated/missed out/or just plain WRONGLY PLACED!!!Unable to render embedded object: File (..LOL.. tiz caput... when its fixed I will continue to improve my ratings as we all work hard to do) not found.!Unable to render embedded object: File (.. I will also be in live chat with linden (when I get my next day off in RL <img class="emoticon" src="/images/icons/emoticons/tongue.gif" height="20" width="20" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/>).. and ask what in the name of rainbow brights underpants is going on) not found.!!!???
PS - Jesse Trenton..(the total prick)!!! is in page one prefabs?? THIS HAS TO BE A MISTAKE!!!!!LMAO Hi there.
we agree to what has been said before. Me and my partner are among other things database service provider in Second Life and offered for more than a year now the PPRS System (Profile Pick Reward System) - the leading system in SL that avatars with payment can benefit from and listing places with profile picks. I am a clothing content provider aswell since 2006. In order to give an idea about the size of the system, please see our current statistics from april 16th: Places with PPRS: 451 More than 450 places use our PICK-SYSTEM, and almost 27.000 avatars have subscribed to it and love it. Our PPRS is also one of the top rated products on XStreet SL. For a couple of days now various PPRS carrier voice the suspicion that Profile Picks are not relevant anymore for the SL-Search. There is an increasing number of small parcels full with show-in-search prims stuffed with keywords who float to the top of the Search results. The ALL-Search loses credibility since more and more unknown and keyword-manipulated places reach the top. As the administrators of the system we have a responsibility for the people who use PPRS. We have well over 10.000 payments per day, and we pay a whole lot of money to PPRS users. If the Profile Picks are not relevant for the Search results anymore, there is no sense in offering the system anymore. Or to put it differently: there is no reason for place owners to spend a lot of money daily for profile pick rewards. We would need to get an official statement on the observations we described, as well as a statement regarding the future plans for the Profile Picks. From the beginning on the system gets continually developed and enhanced (there is for example an extensive web backend). There are extensive and costly expansions planned for the future. If our system does not have a future anymore due to changes upon your behalf, it makes no sense to develop it further. Linden Lab is welcome to get a detailed view into the internals of the system and the databases and statistics, as well as into the scripts. Since we do not want to be a drag on the SL economy we will accept and implement any requests and restrictions on behalf of Linden Lab that might be necessary to resolve the situation. We would also welcome any form of cooperation. Looking foward to your statement, Hmm seems like somebody has been working on the search after all. Though I got no idea if the lab also took this jira into account.
that might have been another issue, however the search results have changed last night quite a bit!
Thanks for filing this report, Istephanija, and thanks everyone else for the additional information. Search has had a bumpy week, and I apologize on behalf of all of Linden Lab.
We are investigating the issues reported above. There appear to be several factors contributing to the search service behavior changes described above. These changes are limited to All search in the viewer and Web search, and have not affected Classifieds or Places search. These changes were unexpected, so we couldn't give you any advanced warning. We'll post updates here as they become available. On a broader note about search, let me also say, "I hear you." Search is a critical component of the new resident's discovery of SL and a key tool for inworld businesses – and there is a lot Linden Lab can do to improve the experience for both searchers and advertisers. For searchers, we have several usability improvements in the works. For advertisers, we are currently analyzing the failure points in the search logic that allow for several kinds of gaming, as well as poor-quality parcel descriptions, and we are testing possible solutions. In vetting solutions, our goals will be to
While we're still in a research phase with regard to details, I can tell you that we're headed in the direction of adapting many tried-and-true best practices of web search logic to provide high-quality, organically validated results to searchers. We will also be working to improve the documentation for advertisers so that you are fully enabled to be successful with the search service. When we're ready with a more detailed proposal, I'll be posting to the blog and opening a request for comment phase. I look forward to the conversation. Thank you Liana, i am looking forward to the conversation as well.
Thanx for "hearing us" and giving us a quick update on the situation Reading here that search had changed a lot once again, I did a search.
A couple of days ago I was first for "dining room". Today I am on page 2. The top spots are spammers. They have maybe 10 objects for sale, all called "dining room furniture dining room furniture". No picks. And let me just say that my dining rooms are the best in SL. Nothing touches them. And I have a lot of them. And I sell a lot of them. But I have never gamed anything. I guess I better figure out what the game is and start gaming. The symptom is easy to spot. The "google appliance" or whatever they call the system that is doing the ranking is devaluing parcels with a lot of items having similar words.
So for Pamela the fact she has the best selection of Dining Room equipment in Second Life means this "intelligently engineered search ranking system" is marking her store as the worst possible while promoting the worst locations to the top. The google appliance or whatever it is is programmed backwards. Even the Public Photo Garden suffers from this ridiculous "search system" where someone with one photosphere on a tiny parcel gets top billing while the place I run with a couple dozen photo spheres plus a lot of flat backdrops is nowhere to be seen. Having a wide selection of items with the same words in the name/description appears to be a very bad thing in the opinion of the search ranking system. Please eliminate the gamed aspects and fix the relevance rules so they are not inverted. Ann, I think there is more to it because the top spot for "dining room furniture" is a parcel in which 100% of the items (all at the same location) are called "Dining Room furniture Dining Room furniture". I have a ton more items with the word "dining" in it, but nothing specificaly called "dining room furniture", except in the parcel name and description. So I am going around today naming every prim in the store building "dining room furniture" (since it is all unlinked) – a stupid waste of time, but one which I am forced to do if others are doing it.
I do not have a store so i have not seen most of the problems that are reported here. What I have noticed though is that it is becoming increasingly hard to find anything with search. I have started using the Metaverse Ink search along with the regular one to try to head off some of the frustration in looking for items, but that is a clumsy kludge at best.
Why not have a radio-button on the search screen to choose the method the user prefers? If the search kept statistics about what method people like use to search maybe that will shed some light on what can be done in the long run that really works. Liana Linden,
I am very disappointed! Every change that was made since beginning of this Jira has achieved the exact opposite of what was requested. Search is a basic and essential feature and it is useless to any extent! People find nothing anymore, keyword spammers get even more rewarded than before, good places that refuse to BS the search engine end up on page 10. The Search engine is where your customer retention starts and ends, it is the ONLY way to move in Second Life and as a result I get misleading to a places. Not only that you should fix it, you should also think of punishments for those who claim to have jeans but really sell vases. I can't wear a vase, can you? I am tired of teleporting to 20 places and don't even find a product that I was looking for, not to mention that not all jeans are worth buying, I have to teleport 40 times to find an item. FYI Jeans is a metaphor! The Search engine was fine until April, it did what it promised, the rules you once have given us have applied. Nowaday I see myself wasting time and money to get irrelevant results, loss of income and people stealing my keywords by not offering what they claim. It is totally unprofessional on your part, please try to understand the importance of search and hire someone who actually knows how it works, the person(s) in charge right now obviously don't know how deal with it. I can confirm this is an ongoing issue and my parcel is not responding to the huge traffic figures i have the picks the classifeds and i should not be in the place i am in search. Will this issue ever be resolved or are the lindens to useless.
I must say I'm astonished and almost shocked that this important issue still isn't solved. In my view, SL can't work without a reliable (and predictable!) search engine. (There are many examples mentioned above).
OK, I can understand that an intended improvement finally proves not to work as expected - this happens. But there are several thing I can't understand at all:
/me turning to Liana Linden: In LLs defense
the results are less ridiculous now as they been when I have created this Jira, however it is far from being useful yet. I agree with Nylon Nishi that we would like to be updated because the reason why people are upset about Linden Labs is the lack of communication with each other. The blog post 2 weeks ago was just a repetition of a promise. Internet World is a fast living world. If I would workout my problem in that kind of speed I couldn't afford the computer to type this message! After all it is Second Life Hurting and at some point it would be nice to end the beta phase and have some consistencies that we can rely on to make Second Life an awesome place! sorry isteph this is actually getting worse I have a prefab shop and the word prefab is starting to look like a page full of parcels using the spaming of search. 2 of the top three are just spams and more following all the time. This of course means that search listings are getting silly. how long before you find the same happening for all keywords.
I'm watching this fights with keyword spam for months now too. It's so unfair to all honest merchants! My place gets lower and lower in search ranking. I COULD drop/rename about 10.000 prims and COULD name them "stilettos high heels pumps shoes stilettos high heels pumps shoes stilettos high heels pumps shoes". I WOULD be #1 in search ranking for these keywords(until somebody else renames more than 10.000...), but I DON'T BECAUSE I'M HONEST AND STUPID! Please do something against keyword spam! Make it a part of TOS!
I noticed this issue while trying to figure out why my friends store had suddenly dropped about 30 pages in the search results. Unfortunately the more unscrupulous merchants are not voting up this issue as they should but are now in an arms race to take advantage of it. Every single search term is now flooded with tiny parcels with 5-6 objects stuffed with keywords and nothing else while genuine stores with good descriptions and products for sale have dropped to the bottom of the list.
Objects that repeat the same keyword multiple times should cause a place to rank lower as there is no reason in any language to do this other than for SEO. Objects that have something for sale and contain phrases should cause a place to rank higher. Places that have a large number of identical objects should cause a place to rank lower. The most relevant location for any search (specifically with regard to shopping) would consist many unique objects (different names/descriptions) that are marked for sale, are a member of the group that owns the Parcel with a high Revenue Per Visitor (indicating the equivalent of Bounce Rate or Conversion rate on websites). This would cause stores with a large stock with plenty of varied products that are for sale and are popular to rise to the top while locations that are camped, botted, and spammed drop like a stone to the very bottom. Everybody else will be somewhere in the middle. this ssue has been fixed over a year ago.
the spamming of parcels with keywords has been fixed maybe this should be closed |
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