Here's what I'd suggest (but I'm not married to it):

• The top level menu is the same as when you right click the actual avatar, except for the the bottom item is "Attachment >" or "More >" instead of "Take Off >"
• The "Attachment >" submenu has, clockwise from the top: Touch, ___, Drop, Edit, Detach, ___, ___, Inspect

You can pick that apart and borrow any useful ideas from it, if you like.

• moving Detach / Take Off to the top of the menu to prevent accidental nudity
• killing the almost-useless GO option
• removing Drop from attachment

This keeps everything on the top level, and moves potentially confusing/embarrassing options out of the way.

A few things:

• What guidelines are you using for ellipses? Nice catch on "Edit...", but I've noticed they seem pretty odd in some portions of the UI.
• A menu_pie_hud.xml would be warranted. The distinction between HUDs and attachments is too close in the UI. We're not going to need all these options when we right click on a HUD. We do need touch, though. Breaking our work flow to touch HUDs-particularly building huds-is a major pain.
• Is "Gestures..." even needed? I've been asking around, and people don't seem to have noticed it's there, or have used it often. I'd replace it with "Inventory".

Interesting choice on removing "Drop". I've never used it myself due to VWR-4212, but I know it's in a lot of HUD instructions. (Another use case for a HUD right click menu, there).

I'd be fine with moving it, if we can think of another appropriate location. Maybe add a second level attachment pie menu ("More >"), like the pie menu for non-self avatar has? :-\

Other than that, it looks pretty good. The consistency / symmetry between the two menus is very nice.

Good points about Touch and Drop, I'll do another version and work them back in.

McCabe - Now I'm gunning for "Gestures...". I agree that it is underused. It is also easily available from the chat bar, which is now open by default for new residents.

I'm going to try to do this in one menu level, but that might be madness.

Oh and ellipses? Don't get me started. Currently the standard is to use them whenever an action opens a new floater or mode. Malbers and I yearn to use them only when an action completes a process. It's a bit of a nerdfight, and is a low enough priority that nobody has taken it on. I chose to go with the current ... usage so that this feature won't get blocked by religious debates and the need to change the ellipsis use throughout the viewer.

With that said, a PJIRA to change ellipsis use so that they occur less often would certainly have my vote.

I'm not sure what would be sacrificed to move it back, but two clicks to edit a hud object is totally annoying for veteran users.

http://github.com/mccabe/imprudence/commit/fdf4d97d4d9ce64eee4142e491509106be5b716b

"Detach" (followed by "Edit") are the options that make the most sense for an attachment.

If you want the avie pie menu then you only have to right-click on your avie mesh (or failing that you right click on your name tag). Dumbing down the UI is all well and good but if it makes the most frequently used options harder to get to then it's a leap backwards rather than forward.

Content creators need to edit attachments on the fly. Adding another layer of interface between the content creator and the appropriate item on the pie menu is tiring and counterproductive.

This proposed change for 1.23 is really poorly thought out, and the interests of a few folk who don't know to right click on a name rather than on an avatar really shouldn't outweigh the overall efficiency and usefulness of the UI to creators.

At very least, please allow 'Edit' to be on the first layer of selections!

As someone who regularly creates and sells full prim avatars, do you really understand how difficult and annoying it will be to need to go through two menus every time I want to edit an avatar I'm working on?

WHY is this being changed without soliciting feedback? As a content creator, I do not want this. I do not want the edit/detached menus, which I use far more often than "appearance," to be moved to a second menu, requiring another step before I can edit the prim attachments I'm working on.

This is incessantly annoying, incredibly unnecessary, and ridiculous when you can accomplish the same functionality by right clicking on your name tag or Edit > Appearance/Profile/Groups/Whatever.

Again, why was it decided that this change would be made based on thirteen votes, ignoring the complaints here, without soliciting any information or opinion?

Seriously, rather than implimenting this rather HUGE change in UI, all LL really needs to do is have Torley do a little video tip explaining how to access the pie menu by right clicking a name instead of an av. how hard is that?

I'm not entirely averse to having Profile, Friends, and Appearance mode show up when you side-click a prim that's attached to you, but I think there is an appalling disconnect here. I would be agape if someone who's ever tweaked a single prim on their avatar came in here and said "this is a great idea", because clearly their objectivity would be compromised by their love of pointless clicking. People (I'm generalizing this to people who have ever changed their outfit) use the edit/detach functions MORE than Appearance Mode and most especially Gestures (the pie reference).

I also don't see the hate for Drop, since there's been many the time where I've wanted to add something to a modifiable accessory and didn't want to sort through my ocean of Inventory, navigate the folders and dig up the piece just to detach and rez it. Drop is incredibly useful in the right context, but that's the only one I would be okay with being in a submenu.

Edit and Detach are just far too crucial for any sort of avatar related editing to be stuffed in the back.

Oh, and another thing. When I was a noob, I didn't even realize there was a "more" button on the pie menus. So in fact you've made it far more confusing for some noobs, who would expect to see the "edit" option on prims that they are wearing because they see it on literally every other object in the world around them.

You are now asking me to click twice to get to Edit, when Edit is one of the, if not THE, most frequent tasks in SL. There is hardly a day, hardly a personal item, where I don't end up doing some editing, if nothing else than to correct placement, size, and position.

Friends, this was not thought through At All. I urge you to either revert, or rearrange the Pie and place Edit in the first level of options. This one really is a no-brainer, folks.

If you attach-drop, the object keeps the same uuid and thus doesn't require reconfiguring other objects.

Besides being handy for people who create attachments and want to wear-drop-edit-wear in the process of creation.

DON"T REMOVE DROP.

KTHX BAI.

And I would like to second "Edit and Detach are just far too crucial for any sort of avatar related editing to be stuffed in the back. "

Why is this even being considered with only 13 votes?

There is no reason at all to put 2 of the most-used options in the "More" menu, especially when most of the options in the top level menu can be accessed easily in other ways, such as the Communicate button.

As it as already been proposed, why not just educate users on how to use right-clicking names/menus to access the avatar options rather than bury essential menus for attachments on the second level. People who create or use attachments constantly need to access this menu to adjust things. I think it is safe to say that more people use the edit menu on a regular basis than the avatar menu.

If the menu must be changed, here are two options that would probably make more people happy:

• add a "More..." option to attachments so people can access the avatar menu on the second level when wearing prim avatars.

-get rid of Go, Gestures and Friends which are pretty useless and replace those with Edit, Drop and Detach. Friends (and Groups too for that matter) are easily accessible via Communicate. As for Go and Gestures, I think these options are just taking up valuable real estate and are pretty much never used, ever (except maybe on your first day to see what they do).

Also, as someone who has spent the majority of four years in SL creating content, and as someone with a background in professional graphics and visual design, it is frustrating that such disruptive changes have been given priority over arguably crucial, yet easily corrected, flaws which design professionals have patiently argued for over the years only to be met with casual dismissal.

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/680824-post36.html

I think that this menu would adequately address the concerns of this JIRA while still maintaining the same functionality content creators are currently used to. I would support this change if something has to be done to the pie menu, but I think removing Edit/Detach/Drop as suggested originally is a terrible idea.

And I want to reiterate Cindy's comment:

"This is NOT an "improvement". Improving things means making them easier for users to use when they perform their most-used tasks. All this tells me is that someone at the Lab was given the keys to the code who doesn't have the first clue how MOST users use the interface."

^
Yeah, that.

Please revert this change.

Maggie, I had the same first impression... and opened a JIRA (which I then closed):

"...Not enough coffee this morning... it seem to still be there, but only for other folks' attachments (which IIRC was always the case). Closing this. ..."

Sorry for stirring the pot... I can only blame a lack of coffee at the time.

It DOUBLES the number of clicks required to get to an attachment to edit it. Wardrobe sorting, adjusting new goodies ... it's all very common and now not nearly as easy.

With the wrist and hand damage I have, that makes it MORE painful that it need be.

If preventing inadvertent nudity is your goal, please find some other way to do it. Or send me a Linden programmer to do the clicking for me.

No, this new pie menu makes absolutely no sense!
Making things easier for prim-based avatars, why not. But I it makes it very difficult to work on prims for the overwhelming majority of mesh-based avatars... (oh and btw, aren't prim-based avatars themselves based on... prims? Oooh! ahem... ).

It makes even less sense when a lot of the buttons of the main pie menu aren't really useful. Friends and Groups? Well don't we have other buttons in the UI, for that? Gestures? Does anyone ever use the gesture floater?

Now my question: where should we vote for reverting this change?

[EDIT:] Now my answer: it is there VWR-13320!

This makes editing and adjusting attachments horrible when being used to a certain pattern of clicks on a pie menu. Now instead of editing my attachments I get to accidentally go into appearance mode, not to mention the extra clicks and movement it takes just to edit an attachment.

I agree with the above commenters as it does not add any value, and detracts from functionality for me.

Edit and Detach need to be top level options, they are the prime things one needs to do when clicking avatar attachments.

And Drop is now grayed out. WHY???

This was not an improvement!!

I am developing a variety of attachment based products, and this new menu is a problem. What was previously a relatively enjoyable task has now become a pain in the backside.

While I felt this was a bad idea too, it was never a personal issue with the creator of this idea who (obviously) thought it was a helpful contribution. Anyone taking out their frustration on him is being an asshole and needs to grow up.

This version restores Edit to its old spot, Detach still has to move to make room for More, Drop gets scooted out of the way to hopefully make it less accident prone, and the self stuff moves to the second level. Take Off is partially included, the individual HUD and attachment segments are left out.

In other words, to heck with logic. It should be laid out usefully, not logically.

I agree with Ann, that no one should be taking out their ire on McCabe. His efforts are, as always, with the best of intentions, and no one should be mistreating him. But one can disagree with his ideas and dislike the products of his labor and not malign or mistreat the man.

I don't like this pie menu arrangement. It is not conducive to the way I am most comfortable functioning. I also use the inspect option on avatar attachments frequently, and require its return.

The avatar stuff is on the SECOND level.

This may be good for noobs, but it is HELL for content creators. I will not use 1.23 until this is either opt-able or reverted back.

Example; an "ABCDEF" keyboard is a "logical" layout. a "QWERTY" keyboard is a "traditional" layout, whereas DVORAK would likely be considered a useful or "efficient" layout.

Also, Inspect CANNOT be removed. We use this ALL THE TIME, for various reasons.

From now on, removing each and every one of my attachments requires me to do two clicks and a mouse movement per item rather then a single click. This may sound minor, but when you consider how a regular outfit change for me involves removing 8 different attachments on each change... you get 16 clicks and 8 wrist movements instead of 8 clicks. Thats quite a difference.

Combine it with the sheer amount of times I change my outfit during my time on SL... and the number grows and becomes rather impressive.

If you are going to re-arrange the pie menu, please consider basing the arrangement on how often the options are used - not on organising items per category relevance.

I have made this comment because it was brought to my attention while conversing with a more open minded content creator that poor McCabe is being abused for his efforts. I ask as just one human being to others that whoever is responsible for hassling McCabe, stop and consider what you have done recently to try to make lifers lives better whilst not thinking of your own profits.

"If you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all" – Thumper from Bambi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQNJZgKmKV4&feature=related

Edited just to say if you do check the posted link....watch the "april showers" part since it is amazing animation

Somehow I don't see how the category of people who 1) wear a full prim avie, 2) and who look at their own profile or go into appearance far more often than they ever right-click / Edit or Detach an attachment, 3) and who have the viewer set not to show their own nametag is substantial enough to inconvenience everyone else.

There already were 3 ways to call up your own profile:

• right-click your avie > Profile
• right-click your name tag > Profile
• Edit / Profile

There is only one way to edit an attachment which was made even harder to get at now (and while there are several ways to detach a specific attachment only right-click > Detach is actually convenient).

Add to that the fact that calling up your own profile isn't even context-sensitive and there was no reason for this change. If someone desperately wants a 4th way to get at their own profile (or to go into Appearance) then a keyboard shortcut would be the way to go.

Why do you assume that I am/was looking at my profile " far more often" than I am/was editing my attached prims?

I do and will set the viewer how i like and nametags are not so useful as being able to access ones own profile easily since I already know my own name but the profile does on occasions need to be altered.

many people including some Lindens wear full prim avis and their popularity is growing in my humble opinion (for the reasons I described) so it makes sense to change the pie menu to suit.

To edit an attachment takes one more click than it did before. The only reason people are getting so uptight about this new system is because it is different and "different is bad" is an all too popular way of thinking. Change is essential and to be encouraged. However as I thought I made clear my main concern and reason for this post was in support of poor McCabe who (as far as I am aware) is being abused for his part in this. As far as what I think of the new menu goes — I have my opinion and I am entitled to it. I still like it.

Very, very useful.

Have you considered asking the people in question rather than poking their bits and bobs? I make attached items and have had to include script to protect worn items from being poked by any but the owner cause of people poking at things that don't belong to them. But fair point in a small way.

The simple fact of the matter, is that this "new" pie menu layout is horrible. It's a pain in the backside. There was nothing wrong with the original version, it worked very well and there was ABSOLUTELY NO good reason to change it.

I am not "uptight about this new system" because it's different... I am aggravated because it is inconvenient and unnecessary.

And there are no where near as many full prim avatars in use as normal. If this change is to support such a small population of users, than this change was not made in the best interests of the community.

Have you considered asking the people in question rather than poking their bits and bobs?

No. For one thing. because most of them don't know how to find out anyway, and I don't care to give a noob tutorial.
Also, any object can be inspected; attachments shouldn't be different simply because they are worn.

A fair point is not in a small way when it directly contradicts your assertion ("you don't need to inspect an attachment")

Any decent content creator can tell you moving edit to the back creates allot more work and cuts productivity. For those that have arthritis its become literally torture to some. Inspect helps to show every prim in an object and who created it allot more conveniently then edit.

Furthermore, as someone that occasionally wars all prim avatars, and in fact has one alt permanently stuck in one, I STILL say I preferred the old menu by far.

As someone that knows several people with chronic degenerative diseases that affect the hand and wrist ... again I am going to say that this menu only hurts them.

I like McCabe, and respect him allot, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with this new menu system he thought up. Saying that this new menu is not a goo0d design and should be reverted is in no way an attack on him. It simply means one of the many hundreds of ideas he has had turned out to not be so good for the majority of users. Most of the other hundreds have been great ideas.

Is that the pending new change? Why not just leave the current options the way they are and add the new ones to vacant spots? confuzzled

Detach / Edit / Drop the way they are... Touch to the left of Detach... which puts all the attachment related functions neatly together (and doesn't change the existing order) instead of mixing them in with options that don't really make sense for attachments.

Additionally... what is the reason for getting rid of "Groups" on the avie self-click pie menu? That's the only I actually use (since there's a keyboard shortcut for Friends and Gestures, but there isn't one for Groups), aside from Profile and Appearance (no shortcuts for those one either).

We're not planning to just roll back the change to the original state – we think that we had good reason for making this change to help new users and improve consistency in the UI, and reduce accidental nudity by moving troublesome items away from the lower right quadrant. However, we're willing to go back to a flat (one-layer) menu so that everything is one click away, and take away a couple of the less important items.

The proposed revision is attached:

https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/23915/rightclickavattach2.png

If we could get some constructive feedback, it would be helpful.

Q

Put edit in the edit spot. Lower right.

Stick appearance at the very top. Better for inexperienced residents.

What is touch needed for when a click is touch or is supposed to be.

Delete drop unless you can prove the code path does not lead to lost inventory. I.e.; drop is a prime source of inventory loss. Fix the code or remove the drop option. Unless you rename it to "Lose". Rename it to lose and it will more accurately reflect the results of selecting that option.

The word you need to use as a guideline is called consistency.

Better yet develop advanced radial fly out menus that are more science fiction styled with animated graphical effects instead of these boring looking ones. Less clicks is more.

• I agree the Edit option needs to remain in the space where it has existed previously. Moving it elsewhere to make room for entering appearance mode is not an intuitive design choice because edit is used far more often than appearance mode. The bottom right position for Edit mode has become used to the point where entering that mode is close to an impulse - this is particularly why there is so much drama surrounding the change.

• Please do not remove 'drop'. Items that depend on maintaining a single UUID when moved will be broken, leading to a lot of headaches. In almost three years of SL use, I have experienced lots of different kinds of asset loss, but NOT ONCE via dropping of a worn item.

I at no point Burnman stated that MaggY was violating anyones privacy but then it could be argued that "and I don't care to give a noob tutorial. " isn't exactly in the spirit of goodwill. And quite openly flies in the face of "this change was not made in the best interests of the community.".

The attacks on McCabe have been made inworld and elsewhere but in order to respect his privacy I am not posting the link to his own blog on the subject. Any "constructive feedback" is obviously not what I was referring to when I simply asked that "whoever is responsible" stop.

But Cummere....How have I been disrespectful? By stating my own views? Then may I say to you that you are also disrespectful for doing the same?

@Ann Otoole. Touch on the menu is very useful when in edit on for eg. a linked prim when you wish to touch_start an object during that edit.

@Q Linden. If the menu for attached items could continue to include all the new features in one layer then surely everyone would end up happy. But personally I think it's just fine the way it is.

Since I have been misspelled, accused of being disrespectful, Warned ("Eddy, I'm going to tell you once to stop trolling. thats it.") and generally made to feel bad for making my own view heard I am not going to add further comments on this subject.

"If we could get some constructive feedback, it would be helpful."

Simply because people disagree (in many cases... very strongly) with the usefulness of this change, does not mean their criticism is not constructive. I think that so many people have voiced disagreement provides a wealth of useful feedback related to the change. For myself, reverting this change to the previously superior menu would be a very positive thing. This new menu is more of a pain than it is useful, and by implementing it, working with attachments has become more of a chore than it ever needed to be.

As for your suggested modification to this new menu, as detailed in your attached image ( https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/23915/rightclickavattach2.png ), I feel that the grayed out menu options give the menu a very disorganized and cluttered appearance. I suggest moving Detach, Edit, and Drop back to their original positions and adding any new options for this menu to the empty wedges which were previously available. It does not make any sense to "reinvent the wheel" when it's been rolling along so efficiently for as long as it has.

Please forgive me if I sound a bit short here, but I have spent the last two days being irritated by this new menu while trying to work on a couple of my attachment projects.

Here are the constraints we're working under:

• We do need to improve these menus for new users. We have real data on real support problems caused by the fact that when people accidentally click, they tend to click pie menus down and down right. That means we're not going to revert.
• Major functionality changes like multiple concentric rings aren't going to happen at this late stage of a release. Sorry, @Ann. I actually agree with you that pie menus have a lot more potential than currently exists, but we're not going to get there before 1.23 ships.
• We should provide easy access to common operations. The risk of such a statement is that "common" depends on who you are. Different people have very different usage models.
• Muscle memory for existing residents is useful to preserve, and we'll do so where we can. But it can't and won't be the only criterion, especially where it conflicts with the goals above. "Never change anything I like" is a recipe for long-term irrelevance.

What I got out of the discussion above is that a double-layer menu causes real long-term troubles for builders – two clicks for common operations is bad. That's why we're now proposing a single-layer menu that restores the common operations for builders and stil avoids putting drop at the bottom (where it's commonly clicked accidentally). We've removed some of the new features we had tried in favor of keeping some of the things we already had.

I think it's also a good idea to put edit back where it was so that muscle memory for that operation, at least, is not disrupted. I'm now proposing that we switch Appearance... and Edit... – I'll follow up with images in a minute.

@Q Linden - please tell me that you have learned a lesson here and that any future changes to the UI will be tested with representatives of all user types prior to releasing to the much larger RC population. Just like any other web application, your user population consists of people with differing goals and all of them should be represented in your Use Case scenarios. Clearly they were not, during the analysis of this change. Thank you for releasing a new design for consideration by a wider audience.

I agree the pie menu needed a review. You will have one now but it seems a backwards method to get feedback.

[paragraph deleted - Q's post above, posted while I was writing this, answers my question]

@mabb dilweg - learn lesson? this was RC0, which is suppose to draw feedback on changes, even if we don't like the changes. This is the testing of representatives of all types! and JIRA is the feedback center. Please, you guys are really far too harsh on Linden's who are good intentioned here. The system worked, a change which would have disrupted many users was avoided.

The pie menus should not be a hodge podge of commonly accessed features... it should be specific to what is being clicked. If you right click an attachment, then you should be presented with menu options specific to attachments (Detach, Edit, Drop). If you right click your avatar, then you should be presented with avatar specific options (Appearance, Profile, Groups, etc).

If new people are clicking detach because they aren't reading the pie menu before they click, or whatever the reason newbies seem to click down & to the right... then move the 3 attachment specific menu options to the opposite side of the wheel, rather than clutter it up with options available elsewhere. I don't mind getting used to a new position on the menu... but I don't see why "Gestures" need to be accessed from right clicking an attachment... or "Profile"... or "Appearance".

Perhaps things like Appearance, Profile, Gestures, Groups, Friends, etc... should be moved off the "Edit" drop down menu, and added to another drop down menu with a better title for such avatar specific features. Perhaps something like... "My Avatar" or something. Or, rather than add another drop down menu, narrow the buttons at the bottom of the viewer, and add a new button which provides access to these features, and label the button "My Avatar". Then, the pie menu can be used for target specific menus... much like how right clicking an attachment used to work.

It is counterintuitive to use a target specific right click menu to access options which do not relate to the target you right-clicked.

Right-click nametag (or avie) / Groups is a rather "common" operation for me to access my groups and while I personally don't particularly care whether it's on the pie menu or not, removing it removes easy access to the groups floater because it doesn't currently have a keyboard shortcut (Friends does and Gestures which gets to stick around for some reason on the other hand both do have one).

—

As far as the attachment menu is concerned, why not simply leave it the way it was but bump Detach one to the left to the South-West position and have "More >" on the South position which leads to the self-avie menu? [see suggestion_kitty.jpg]

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the current self pie menu and the removal of options there doesn't seem to be for any other reason than to keep everything in line which feels very clumsy/akward, ending up with a neutered self pie menu and an overly cluttered attachment pie menu with options that don't actually relate to attachments at all.

If your data indicates that newbies tend to gravitate towards the South option then they'll find the self-avie pie menu automatically with that trivial change and everything stays consistant with no useful options getting removed from the self-pie menu either.

For right-clicking an attachment we should at least have edit and detach on the top layer, as well as a 'more' button for other options such as avatar functions. Actually, why not just have the avatar menu just as it is as the 2nd level menu?

I wear prims all the time, of various sorts. Sometimes, I just want to take off ONE. Sometimes, I need to be able to QUICKLY remove just the ones that Adding to Outfit didn't knock off my avatar. The DETACH option is what I'm used to using for this. It's much faster than searching my (overloaded) inventory for what didn't get removed. I can rightclick each object and select DETACH much faster than the Search can find what is being worn, so that I can THEN remove extraneous items.

It would be nice if Replace Outfit didn't knock off EVERYTHING that isn't on the avatar layer that one is wearing, such as hair and HUD attachments, since it is THE intuitive choice when changing clothes.

You want to prevent accidental avatar nudity? Moving the EDIT and DETACH options from the main pie menu level is not the way to do it. Reconfigure or rename the Replace Outfit option to what it really is: REMOVE EVERYTHING I'M WEARING, BUT PUT ON WHAT IS IN THIS FOLDER THAT I'M CLICKING ON.

And I would like someone to supply an answer to why the Take Off option has been moved to the topmost point of the pie? It's annoying, although, I could, begrudgingly, get used to that change. I would just like to know why it had to move, please?

Thanks for bearing with me through this... I think we're all "power users" here, or we would not have sought out this forum, in the first place. That makes our opinion of the new pie menus of more informational value than that of someone who has never used SL before. I do agree that the pie menu needs some updating. For something this intrinsic to the user's experience, though, I would have thought there would have been some serious massive warning, such as on the login page. I didn't see anything about this massive change.

Looking at the proposal from Q Linden in the image https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/23915/rightclickavattach2.png I would suggest on the "Self-Attachment" menu swapping "Detach" and "Gestures" so the old relationship between Edit and Detach (next to each other) is maintained, just moved clockwise one step. Personally I never use Gestures and from reading above nor do many people, so the impact of moving it might be less. It still keeps Detach out of the south/south-right position so lessens risk of accidental nudity.

Thanks for listening to our feedback

–
Salvatore

Though the point of this was so the attachment and self menus somewhat match, the free slots are not free on the attachment menu. And Drop/Group and Detach/Friends could cause some to accidentally drop or detach attachments, especially on prim-based avatars.

The full layout changes:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccabemaxsted/3530057422/

Do with it what you want.

The best solution to the "issue" of newbies clicking down and to the right, was moving the options up and to the left. Adding the additional menu options does nothing to improve user experience, and will only lead to more false clicks by the tens of thousands of people already used to the perfectly functional menu previously enjoyed.

Mark my words... when this goes live on the normal viewer... people are going to be very upset.

Is it so hard to make sure those things are in the place they've always been? The vast majority of users do not have full prim avatars, so moving the options used least when right-clicking an attachment to the leftover spots shouldn't be a problem. Hell, try the XML files attached to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12946

The fixes there solve the problems of leaving everything where it should be, while ADDING the new features, instead of shoving them in the place of the old, expected ones.

Moving stuff around only leads to having old timers getting lost and doing accidental things when they are so used to do everything via "muscle memory" and never read the pie (since they know where everything is).

Removing the Friends and Groups from the self pie makes it only harder to open the friends and groups lists (since the adoption of the calamitous Communicate window, the Friends and Groups buttons disappeared from the toolbar, and users of the official viewer now have to go through the tedious "fly button" one the "Communicate" button to open the contacts panel, but still can't select directly either the friends or groups lists).

I attach modified menu_pie_attachment.xml and menu_pie_self.xml which put back things where they belong.

Why are we STILL going backwards? This is even worse than the older 1.23 pie menus

–
Salvatore

The fact that I can (and will) modify the xml file to suit myself is really not material to this discussion. Not everyone can do that, and this change needs to be about the MAJORITY of the users, not just helping out new users at the expense of the existing users.

In that light it is total insanity to randomly move stuff around and removing options that are used by people who got used to it without getting proper feedback and probably running A/B tests to gather hard facts and comments on alternatives.

It would really be fun to one day see that LL actually had someone who had half an idea on what user interfaces actually are and why there are different variants on controls. But I guess hell freezes over sooner than that ...

And regarding groups and friends: it should be in the pie menu just for the reason that LL allready removed the dedicated buttons on the button bar for them (and shuffled them away in that icky "communicate" button menu monster and it's assorted horrible control). It's really puzzling how creators of a virtual world - where one large part of activity is actually chatting with your friends and groups - constantly trie to break core features and make them less usefull and accessible. This is beyond stupid.

Changing the pie menu is a deal-breaker for me. I will not be upgrading to 1.23.

if you wont use the 1.22 menue then please use the second verion mccabe used (not the one in rc 1 and rc 2 of 1.23). Its really confusing, allot of people are having trouble with it.

biggest complaints as listed in the mentor group, in bsi chat, and in two rp groups im in:

1) the appearance is moved
2) take off moved
3) gestures on every menu instead of other more relevant things
4) lack of friends (at least group is back)
5) the edit appearance on a HUD menu

* We do need to improve these menus for new users. We have real data on real support problems caused by the fact that when people accidentally click, they tend to click pie menus down and down right. That means we're not going to revert.

If Friends can be added back, even better, but honestly I am not finding it a huge inconvenience to access them via communicate. It didnt take me long to get use to the new menu at all and I have to say I agree with Q on the following based on my own involvement with usability testing/research:

* Muscle memory for existing residents is useful to preserve, and we'll do so where we can. But it can't and won't be the only criterion, especially where it conflicts with the goals above. "Never change anything I like" is a recipe for long-term irrelevance.

Yes, it can be frustrating for a few days as we re-learn the menu positions... surely not impossible though?

Yes, it can be frustrating for a few days as we re-learn the menu positions... surely not impossible though?

Let me put it this way.

It was "frustrating enough" for me to sit and make a shell script that over-writes the new Pie Menu XML files with the older pie menu design, as well as restore the old font editors.

After a week I'm still going to Appearance instead of detaching. Muscle memory for over several million users is no laughing matter. Especially not for such an often used function as Detach.

How many of us go to Appearance as much as Detach objects during development and rapid changes of looks? Far less, I assure you. To change your appearance, the modern user will either attach/detach objects, or wear/take off items via inventory. Appearance is a minorly used function now days.

Please revert Detach back to its proper place. It has been and still is driving me crazy.

M's juggernaut "Clean Up Second Life" project (the one that brought you Zindra and will bring you a Teen Grid merge) obviously has as an action item "noobs sometimes accidentally take off all their clothes with the pie menu".

So you're beating a dead horse.