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I have altered the title of this Jira. You should not petition for total removal of a feature if some will find it useful (and some will).
Instead, this feature should be a client option and should not be enabled by default. Edit: Also, many games use double tap to run, so this isn't a completely non-standard implementation (battlefield, unreal, as two high profile examples) Emphatically seconded. This would break an entire class of existing content, as Ordinal described. Off-hand, I know that the combat system on Samurai Island does (or did) use double tapping to perform dodge-jumps. I'm sure there are many other examples of which I am not personally aware.
This will break "phazing devices" such as the emDash, omniphaze, quantum dash et al that rely on the forwards double tap to llPushObject or llMoveTo your avatar 10+ meters in a forwards direction.
I have altered the title _back_; if anyone considers it not to be a bug but to be a feature that should be _restricted_, or one which could be fixed by some other means, by all means submit another JIRA issue on that topic, or comment to that effect here perhaps describing a potential fix, rather than altering the initial issue.
> I have altered the title of this Jira. You should not petition for total removal of a feature if some will find it useful (and some will). Mr Thorne, I will petition for what I damn well feel like. Doubletap to run I believe IS a useful feature - if implemented properly I believe it should not break content.
It seems to me for a lsl script to recognize arrow key imput it must request access to your controls. This gives us a point where we could turn off doubletap and other potentially content breaking extended behaviors. Scripts could then treat control inputs in the standard way without worrying about new behaviors. Releasing controls would re-enable the new behavior. This allows scripts which take control input to handle doubletap and other such behaviors without interference from the client interpretation of keys. A new lsl flag to re-enable doubletap (and other potential extended movement behaviors) could be implemented should the scripter wish to re-enable doubletap to run. Doubletap to run should be enableable/disableable via a flag in prefs. So the logic would be: User has no scripts requesting control input: doubletap on. User has scripts which have taken controls; doubletap off. ALL user scripts which have taken controls have re-enabled doubletap; doubletap on. I think that covers it - would hopefuly not break content by ensuring content is more likely to break the new behavior. I may well be wrong in this. The two problems with making doubletap scriptable or auto switching are:
People who use such scripts (phazing, katana, etc) will loose the ability to run unless Ctrl-R is kept People who only learn to run with double tap will loose the ability to run once they start using an established device, or they will need to relearn. Making people relearn what is a fundamental movement for some groups of residents is a bad thing (tm) voting on this as well, not only will it break content like others have mentioned, but some of use double tap just to scoot forward or backwards a tiny bit, i'd hate for run to turn on every time i try to move slightly. i rarely need the ability to run in second life and when i do it's not hard to hit the normal run key combo to do so.
Pavig's suggestions sounds good.
I think like Sean points out, we need to keep Ctrl-R as well. I might be confusing though for the newly rezzed. Jacek, the Combat: Samurai Island combat system does still use double-tap as part of the combat system, and in fact just added three more moves (as yet unreleased) that make use of the double-tap to help compensate for the lack of other accessible controls.
Switching a feature/keystroke that has been in use for years is just an insanely bad idea, and I am astounded that it is even being considered. Pavig, animation overrides take controls in every case I've seen. How many people *don't* have an animation override? Probably very few.
This is a bad idea all around. The simple fact that they're considering it before building a UI section for remapping your keyboard functions is beyond me. I mean something like this wouldn't just glitch hundreds of products but it would absolutely break and put several thousand products out of commission.
Yah...I'm sooo against making double-tap run. I have *quite* a few products that *rely* on double-tap for dash, jump, or other special moves. If you make double-tap run you'll break hundreds of products and combat systems that rely on it.
I have products of my own design using a double tap on the keys to perform actions, and I also have several products I've purchased that do the same thing. There is already a shortcut to toggle running on and off (Ctrl-R), and most games seem to have something like that and likely a separate button to hold down to temporarily walk or run.
Someone above mentioned that Unreal uses double tapping to run, and I know that to be inaccurate. It uses double tapping to dodge much like in the way C:SI works. I vote against adding this feature and recommend either adding a new key for running or leaving it the way it is. This is a horrible idea leave the run alone its fine as is., not to mention all the products that I have that will no longer work if this is implemented.
You got my vote too.
SL yet has only a few number of useable key combinations for custom control (click+arrows, click+pageup/down, double tap), removing the double tap one would be really bad. Don't remove keys; add more instead! I'm all for double tap running, assuming the ability to detect every key on the keyboard comes with it. :p
Seriously. This is a major change which absolutely needs feedback from residents before implementation. My personal opinion is to get rid of this option or make it a preference setting due to the amount of players and scripters who use double tapping already as a function within scripts. This function will completely destroy those scripts/systems. Please do not take away a precious detected key to make room for an already implemented function. Ctrl + R is not hard, I use it every day.
*edit* And since I found out that it was already implemented.. ugh Please change this. While my previous statement may have stretched it a little bit, its still damaging. To put it simple enough I'm opposed to this change due to the problems it will probably cause for developers and because there are way more important functions needed to be implemented involving the keymap. Argent, I voted on that issue. I think that allowing full user control without hand-editing config files or using third-party tools would be excellent!
I am against the double tap run.
Please ask the elders of C:SI and top players in this sport before you go changing things that hurt the sport of swording,, thankyou Silver Csak This is an unnecessary addition to movement that would cause more harm than good.
Double tap wouldn't work (if any of the lindens have used SL outside of the office they would see the lag before avatar moves, SL has chosen not to include adequate hardware delegation to sims and therefore any form of double action won't work even if it's client side, how can a user correctly interpret what is happening client-side if movement changes in-world don't occur until the damn network&sim responds to requests made 10+ seconds ago) The only reason I can see for this change, is slightly more "ease of use" and slightly more "intuitive" in theory but not in practice. The people that would benifit from this wouldn't even know it's implemented and would use it by mistake, where as those aware of the change are against it. Not to mention every type of movement mini-game and most keyboard driven physics programming will instantly brake (over a million different products). I kind of like it, but if it breaks content it should be backed out.
It doesn't necessarily break everything that I'm concerned about in terms of "it doesn't function anymore", but what it will almost certainly do is cause confusion if someone new to Second Life and Combat: Samurai Island (for instance) tries to double-tap to run and ends up dashing instead. It seems likely to me that, not knowing better, they will think that in-world products using double-tap are just poorly designed to override client functionality rather than having come first.
And if CTRL-R is removed (it seems to currently still work), then it could cause even bigger problems. I'm sure that there are implications I'm not yet seeing, the fundamental point being that LL has decided to implement a key combination that is already in very common usage. Please cite non-theoretically-broken landmarks and items (i.e. where vended from) and I'll have a look.
Confirmed broken content:
emDash by Cheshyr Pontchartrain http://slurl.com/secondlife/Gallifrey/128/163/567 Omniphaze by Ryozu Kojima http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hwaryeo/106/161/58 Ashes Jin-Geom by Esprite Xavier http://slurl.com/secondlife/Samurai%20Island/178/48/25 just for a start. This is far more than "theoretically-broken" items, this is a real issue. Tofu, I think the primary point here is that this feature shouldn't be implemented because it will theoretically brake, cause malfunction, or confusion in products that other wise work just fine without a feature thats **not needed**.
Working on features, like properly implementing keymapping, or simply fixing other problems and bugs would be something I would hope would be higher on the priority list. I think thats the main point here. But then again, if anyone has some facts, stats and or proof for the man please provide it for him like seany did, it wouldn't hurt! "Someone above mentioned that Unreal uses double tapping to run"
Wouldnt know about that, but I *do* know that there.com uses the doubletap to run. Not to mention that I never run in SL, and I know of no one who does. If movement needs to be speedy, I just fly. To clarify, I'm interested in specific reproducible examples of content that are *actually* broken in 1.20. I understand that Samurai Island's moves are not actually broken, counter to the fears here.
Thanks for the examples Sean, that's what I need.
I made a dasher myself, and I'm using double-taps to trigger it. It's just the most convenient way to do it. And it's the video game way too. Double tap implies a "burst" of speed, while running is something continuous. Thus holding shift or control while using the arrows would be more logical for running.
Will Webb said : "Not to mention that I never run in SL, and I know of no one who does.
If movement needs to be speedy, I just fly." In C:SI duelling, we are not allowed to fly, only running and jumping (and double-tap do dash) to try to move faster than the opponent. If a young fighter keeps on simply walking, he get sliced in less than 5 seconds. Please Lindens, at least make this feature "enable/disable" in the pref just like we (CSI player) are able to disable "flying by holding UP button". Thanx for reading How we move gets VERY ingrained. I still use old Win95 layouts for my WinXP... I hate change of that sort. Ctrl R is not hard. People don't get it immediately, but do we really want people running before they've gotten a decent ao anyway? Really? And since running over any not-perfectly-smooth surface is now a recipe for disaster, launching into the stratosphere, or falling flat, it really isn't safe for newbies anyway. And everyone else seems to have no trouble with ctrl R. I use double tap all the time to nudge my avatar, and to do the dash with my double katanas. I don't *need* it for run because my brain is already hard wired to ctrl R. I'm 36 years old and while I am still capable of learning new tricks, I'm having a harder and harder time unlearning old ones.
I'd like to point out that in video games double tapping is becoming a convention to run, especially for unmonitored running in MMOs (double tap and your character will continue to run until you tell it otherwise). In video games holding a button to WALK is the convention, as the default action is to run (with sprint being a new ability added rather recently).
I'm also quite against this change without a means of turning it off if I want to. I'll often times tap forward to reposition myself while talking to people, this could prove quite annoying if I were to sudden take off for no apparent reason, or worse run into someone whom I'm trying to line up with. Tofu, you are partially correct. While Combat: Samurai Island (C:SI) is not "broken" in terms of becoming non-functional as I had first feared, this still causes us some trouble and added customer support issues, because double-tap to run is the same key combination used to dash in C:SI, and when a person dashes in C:SI they lose some of their limited stamina. In addition to dash, there are new combat moves that are initiated with the double-tap that will now have to be assigned a much less intuitive key combination, if one can even be found since we are already having to "get creative" to work around the issue of limited LSL access to keys.
C:SI currently has more than sixteen thousand customers, and is growing by approximately a thousand customers a month. Without having any way to know for certain, I'd speculate that the majority of those are not hard-core enthusiasts who fight on a daily basis, and probably aren't exposed to the "common wisdom" of the C:SI community on how to get around some of SL's quirks to get the most out of a C:SI product. That majority will (extrapolating to newer future customers) likely think that C:SI developers were stupid to have chosen a key combination for dash that they could otherwise use to run, therefore making it so that you cannot run using C:SI products :( I understand that you probably are not terribly interested in sword combat in SL, and probably will not be motivated to try it out long enough to really get a feel for how many things LL has recently done adversely affect the system, but rather than ask you to go to a vendor I'll send you a weapon in-world so that you can see what I mean. If for some reason you prefer to receive a weapon from a vendor, I have several vendor locations listed in my picks, but will also send you a landmark. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bug
Reopened
Major
Petition *against* 1.20 RC - "double-tap to run" implementation
Some alternatives:
1. Video game convention - use a shift or control key that toggles run while held down.
2. Internet convention - (what I prefer) - left-clicking the ground should default to "go here" (rather than right-click, pie-menu), and double-left clicking the ground should default to "run here".