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Issue Details (XML | Word | Printable)

Key: VWR-5647
Type: Meta Issue Meta Issue
Status: In Progress In Progress
Priority: Major Major
Assignee: Qarl Linden
Reporter: Aminom Marvin
Votes: 148
Watchers: 34
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1. Second Life Viewer - VWR

Meta-Issue: Sculpted Prims Need More Linden Lab Development

Created: 14/Mar/08 06:10 PM   Updated: 16/Nov/09 09:41 AM
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Component/s: Building (in-world)
Affects Version/s: None
Fix Version/s: None

File Attachments: None
Image Attachments:

1. 3palm1_001_efficient_by_IAm_Zabelin.jpg
(60 kB)

2. CameraGT_1024_Sculpt_Issues_by_Iam_Zabelin.jpg
(117 kB)

3. lossless bug explained.jpg
(82 kB)

4. Sculpt glitch correct.jpg
(445 kB)

5. Sculpt glitch incorrect.jpg
(451 kB)

6. sculpted nature experiments by Cel Edman.jpg
(93 kB)
Issue Links:
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 Description  « Hide
In the last 10 months, sculpted prims have proven to be the most important building feature ever added to SL. Sculpted prims and similar technology, if further developed, could be the standard for streaming 3D content not only in virtual worlds, but online in general.

Unfortunately sculpt technology is largely the same as released. The lossless bug just had its six month anniversary, and both Qarl Linden and the sculpt developer community have numerous ideas on how to further the technology: some of them requiring relatively small amounts of development time, and others requiring more (but worth it in terms of results.)

This issue is to petition Linden Lab to devote more time to developing sculpt technology. Currently, sculpts have very low priority. I am marking this as a major priority because myself and other sculpt designers believe it is past due to add additional functionality to this technology.

Sculpt designers and users, feel free to post pictures of your work showing what is possible with sculpts, and how important sculpts are to SL.



 All   Comments   Change History      Sort Order: Ascending order - Click to sort in descending order
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Field Original Value New Value
Link This issue Relates to VWR-2968 [ VWR-2968 ]
WarKirby Magojiro added a comment - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM - edited
I agree. Though before any big things, like proper sculpt collision, inworld sculpt making tools, etc. I'd like to see all the small issues ironed out first.

Most importantly, above all else, I feel VWR-3922 is the worst issue with sculpts right now. I'm working on a suit of armor, and some parts of it simply never load in a particular session. When I login, it seems to be luck whether things will load properly or not, and other people have similar experiences. It's extremely frustrating to know that many people around you may not be seeing your work properly.


WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-1153 [ VWR-1153 ]
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-1445 [ VWR-1445 ]
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-665 [ VWR-665 ]
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-3922 [ VWR-3922 ]
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-3798 [ VWR-3798 ]
WarKirby Magojiro made changes - 16/Mar/08 05:27 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-5432 [ VWR-5432 ]
Theblack Box made changes - 19/Mar/08 11:05 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-2404 [ VWR-2404 ]
Theblack Box added a comment - 19/Mar/08 11:47 PM
I agree too.

Here is how i feel the order should be:

fix VWR-2404
fix VWR-3798

(Qarl Linden makes it right ... dont mark as resolved ... let us confirm that first ... will work much better ...)

and after that see how much of VWR-3922 and VWR-1153 is still happening.

If thats done, Sculpties would be working fine. (be on the client quick and render correctly)

After that i would like to see VWR-1445 and VWR-665 getting solved because not everybody in SL can script.

and after that we can have nice discussions about the future of Sculpties.

So this is the sorting that i would advocate for: VWR-2404 > VWR-3798 > VWR-3922 ? > VWR-1153 ? > VWR-1445 > VWR-665

And because this may turn out to involve many different parts of code at many different places, that might be under the watch of many different Lindens, i would strongly suggest to make a kind of inter-LL-department-sculptie-fix Task-force or alike ...

If you think these Sculptie-issues are not that much of a deal PLEASE speak to a person you trust who actually does a lot with Sculpties in SL ....


Aminom Marvin added a comment - 20/Mar/08 12:54 AM
Theblack Box's ordering priority seems spot-on. First priority should be given to make sure that existing sculpts should load correctly, load quickly, and display correctly. These core bug issues have unanimous support from every sculpt designer I've talked to, my customers, and lots of acquaintances I've talked to.

cel edman made changes - 20/Mar/08 05:14 PM
cel edman made changes - 21/Mar/08 05:58 PM
Attachment lossless bug explained.jpg [ 15562 ]
Aminom Marvin added a comment - 26/Mar/08 01:03 PM
I am quite impressed with the community support for sculpt-related issues; I've seen two groups independently begin campaigns for sculpt advocacy without having been asked to do so. So, a note to Lindens: if you begin to see increased JIRA activity on sculpt-related issues, it is the result of legitimate campaigns, not alt or bot mischief

Theblack Box made changes - 03/Apr/08 02:52 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-6002 [ VWR-6002 ]
Theblack Box added a comment - 18/Apr/08 01:08 PM
Finally some progress:

1.20 RC1 has UI-integration for changing the Sculpt Type (vwr-1445).
1.20 RC2 is supposed to fix the lossless-bug (vwr-2404).
Loading priorities (vwr-3798) are being investigated but there are at least 2 Lindens that confirm that there actually IS a bug.
The need to allow flipping of sculpt-maps from within SL is being recognized (vwr-5432).
This Meta-jira here is recognized as being helpful for Sculptie-developmet.

Sculpt on !

ps: Big big thanks to Qarl "Badass" Linden and all Lindens who helped him (specially Steve for fixing the fix for vwr-2404)


Theblack Box added a comment - 24/Apr/08 04:19 AM
I take it back.

Despite the update-notes VWR-2404 is NOT fixed in RC3.
Apperently no adequat testing has been done to verify if the fix fixes anything or the integration of the fix went wrong.
This leaves the top 2 problems with sculpties yet unresolved.

VWR-2404 and VWR-3798


Theblack Box made changes - 10/May/08 04:46 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-5785 [ VWR-5785 ]
cel edman added a comment - 14/May/08 04:52 PM

I guess http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5785 is even more killing for sculpties then the lossless bug.


Argent Stonecutter made changes - 22/May/08 04:56 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-2276 [ VWR-2276 ]
Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 22/May/08 04:56 PM
Now that 2404 seems to have been mostly fixed, I'd like to bring up simple sculpty animation again.

Aminom Marvin made changes - 02/Jun/08 01:25 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-7578 [ VWR-7578 ]
Aminom Marvin made changes - 02/Jun/08 01:25 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-7578 [ VWR-7578 ]
Theblack Box added a comment - 03/Jun/08 12:37 PM
The first priority should be: Sculpties need to load correctly (VWR-2404, VWR-2968, VWR-3922, VWR-5785) and fast (VWR-3798).

The second priority should be: Sculpties should be fully integrated into the SL-UI so they can be used better by more people more easyly. (VWR-1445, VWR-6002, VWR-665, VWR-5432)

Currently anti-optimized content creation is being encouraged by the simple fact that 256x256 and 128x128 Sculpt-Textures load faster than 64x64 Sculpt-Textures.

It might be a good idea to complete some of this work before introducing new features for Sculpties like llSetSculptAnim (VWR-2276), different LoD-Ratios (VWR-7578) and different Mesh-Ratios (VWR-???)

Most people posting in the JIRA about sculptie-issues (including me) are advanced Sculptie-users ... we are keen on new toys to play with, new features for sculpties and all that and we can manage to work around existing problems to some degree. But for the sake of a better SL it might be a better idea to get the basics straight first.


Qarl Linden made changes - 20/Jun/08 08:41 AM
Assignee Qarl Linden [ Qarl Linden ]
Qarl Linden made changes - 20/Jun/08 08:41 AM
Status Open [ 1 ] In Progress [ 3 ]
McCabe Maxsted made changes - 26/Jun/08 07:23 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-5349 [ VWR-5349 ]
Hypatia Callisto made changes - 26/Jun/08 01:01 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-5189 [ VWR-5189 ]
Hypatia Callisto made changes - 26/Jun/08 01:01 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-5191 [ VWR-5191 ]
Hypatia Callisto added a comment - 27/Jun/08 06:35 AM - edited
"Currently anti-optimized content creation is being encouraged by the simple fact that 256x256 and 128x128 Sculpt-Textures load faster than 64x64 Sculpt-Textures"

I suspect that the move to http for the texture pipeline will be what fixes that problem.

VWR-1445 > is in the new RC already. Fix pending.

I agree that the preview needs to not suck, and that there needs to be a button for making a sculpted prim. These seem pretty trivial to do, unsure why its not in there.

Flipping a sculptie's normals should be something you do in your modeller or PS rather than burdening SL with it. I don't see it as very high priority, its usually just a sign of user error (or in some cases > I use this trick on purpose to simulate hollow transparent sculpties)


Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 28/Jun/08 06:36 AM
Moving to HTTP for the texture pipeline won't make lossless textures load faster than lossy ones if the lossy ones are getting higher compression and actually making smaller files.

Flipping a sculpty's normals and Z coordinates would allow you to use a single sculpt texture for two mirror image sculpted prims, which would reduce the number of textures you need to download.


Hypatia Callisto added a comment - 29/Jun/08 02:34 AM - edited
http will make a big difference, because UDP is why its happening. It seems to me that you get part of the texture data for larger sculpts, so they progressively rez into existence, whereas with smaller sculpts, you often have to wait for the entire texture to load. (lossless simply loads slower, too - its not a file size issue, as 256 textures do have a larger file size, even though compressed.) So it seems to load faster with larger textures, due to progressive loading.

Although I know that it will reduce textures to be able to flip them, flipping on the color channels I wonder is too much overhead to put in the viewer. (it might make loading sculpts slower due to calculations)


Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 29/Jun/08 11:54 AM
The progressive loading problem is the fault of the JPEG2000 format and library, not the transfer mechanism.

Flipping sculpts has negligible overhead, because there's no inherent meaning to a color map: the color map has to be converted to a mesh, and flipping the sign or changing the order of reading the pixels while you're converting them to a mesh is nothing.


IAm Zabelin added a comment - 05/Jul/08 06:56 PM - edited
>>Sculpt designers and users, feel free to post pictures of your work showing what is possible with sculpts, and how important sculpts are to SL.

____________________________________________________
Hi,

Thx for creating the bug report. These sculpt issues kill me, and are very demoralizing for content creators.

I attach 2 examples :

1) First is an example of what creators can do with sculpts in nature : all 3 palms are 1 prim ... meaning users can replace their LL palms and claim back 66% of the prims used. Unfortunately from time to time they rez a little bad due to the sculpt issues.

2) The second is an example of a 25 prim car - showing that decent cars are possibly within the 32 prim "vehicle limit". But as is illustrated, sometimes there is some distortion on the sculpts.

Hopefully this will all be resolved soon!


IAm Zabelin made changes - 05/Jul/08 06:56 PM
Attachment 3palm1_001_efficient.jpg [ 17521 ]
IAm Zabelin made changes - 05/Jul/08 06:56 PM
Attachment 3palm1_001_efficient.jpg [ 17521 ]
IAm Zabelin made changes - 05/Jul/08 06:57 PM
IAm Zabelin added a comment - 05/Jul/08 07:00 PM
Example of sculpts loading badly / differently on sculpted 25 prim car

IAm Zabelin made changes - 05/Jul/08 07:00 PM
IAm Zabelin made changes - 05/Jul/08 07:01 PM
Comment [ Example - Efficient sculpts in nature ]
Hypatia Callisto made changes - 20/Jul/08 03:52 AM
Link This issue is related to by MISC-1400 [ MISC-1400 ]
Hypatia Callisto added a comment - 20/Jul/08 04:22 AM
linked to MISC-1400 - metaissue to enhance the SL toolset

Strife Onizuka added a comment - 20/Jul/08 09:54 AM
/me whistles Dixie innocently
http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/758?new_path=%2F

PRIM_SCULPT_FLAG_INVERT
PRIM_SCULPT_FLAG_MIRROR


WarKirby Magojiro added a comment - 20/Aug/08 11:54 AM
Abridged release notes for 1.21: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/15941-some-fixes-additions-upcoming-1-a.html

We're getting the ability to flip and mirror sculpts, non square sculpt maps, and the large objects not loading until clicked has been fixed ., YAAY


Alexa Linden made changes - 21/Aug/08 09:58 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-8613 [ VWR-8613 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 16/Sep/08 05:05 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-9225 [ VWR-9225 ]
Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 08/Oct/08 10:28 AM - edited
Apparently PRIM_SCULPT_FLAG_MIRROR is still not defined in 1.21 RC5.

Qarl Linden added a comment - 08/Oct/08 10:37 AM
hey Argent - thanks for the heads-up. i'll find-out what went wrong and fix it asap.

Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 08/Oct/08 10:43 AM - edited
See http://forums.secondlife.com/showpost.php?p=2174459&postcount=13

Apparently this didn't get entered in Jira, and the source in SVN seems correct. I'm guessing that, possibly, Dora is compiling with Mono and the compiler on the server's not up to date?

[I can't get into SL during the day, even when I'm on break, or I'd have tested this]


Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 08/Oct/08 02:26 PM - edited
Originally Posted by Qarl Linden

Argent is right - with the advent of mono, all compilation is done on the simulator (even LSL compilation, so.)

ORLY?
(from this post)


Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Oct/08 05:58 PM
Link This issue Relates to MISC-398 [ MISC-398 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Oct/08 06:00 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-7490 [ VWR-7490 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Oct/08 06:01 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-8595 [ VWR-8595 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 11:08 AM
Workflow jira-2007-12-22a [ 53445 ] jira-2008-11-14 [ 64726 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 11:30 AM
Workflow jira-2007-12-22a [ 64726 ] jira-2008-11-14 [ 72670 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 05:01 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 72670 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 97401 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 05:15 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 97401 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 102953 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 05:25 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 102953 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 106603 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 05:40 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 106603 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 111931 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 06:09 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 111931 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 122579 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 06:36 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 122579 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 132551 ]
Sue Linden made changes - 13/Nov/08 06:55 PM
Workflow jira-2008-11-14 [ 132551 ] jira-2008-11-14a [ 139814 ]
gearsawe stonecutter added a comment - 20/Dec/08 09:41 PM
the "Sculpt glitch" images shows an odd behavior. The prims are colored yellow in wire frame. Where each vertex shift have the distance between the correct. It does not appear to be and LOD issue since the same number of verts are there. Also appears to happen in a higher concentration of sculpts in one area.

gearsawe stonecutter made changes - 20/Dec/08 09:41 PM
Attachment Sculpt glitch correct.jpg [ 21023 ]
Attachment Sculpt glitch incorrect.jpg [ 21024 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 23/Jan/09 12:57 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-11688 [ VWR-11688 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 01/Feb/09 09:43 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-11828 [ VWR-11828 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 01/Feb/09 09:43 AM
Summary Sculpted Prims Need More Linden Lab Development Meta-Issue: Sculpted Prims Need More Linden Lab Development
Wolfpup Lowenhar made changes - 18/Feb/09 05:27 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-8503 [ VWR-8503 ]
Adeon Writer made changes - 23/Feb/09 12:16 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-12171 [ VWR-12171 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 17/Mar/09 01:36 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-10678 [ VWR-10678 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 17/Mar/09 01:41 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-11768 [ VWR-11768 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 20/Mar/09 01:29 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-12512 [ VWR-12512 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 28/Mar/09 08:32 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-3798 [ VWR-3798 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 28/Mar/09 08:32 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-12610 [ VWR-12610 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 07/Apr/09 02:12 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-12701 [ VWR-12701 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Apr/09 07:05 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-7204 [ VWR-7204 ]
Contagious Republic made changes - 17/Apr/09 03:38 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-10173 [ VWR-10173 ]
Contagious Republic added a comment - 17/Apr/09 03:38 PM
Sculpties need their own LOD slider as resident usually want more detail level on sculpt maps than on other textures, but can't agree on how much more they need.

Ellla McMahon made changes - 24/Apr/09 09:10 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-12945 [ VWR-12945 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 26/Apr/09 06:48 AM
Link This issue is related to by MISC-333 [ MISC-333 ]
Mimika Oh made changes - 20/May/09 09:28 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-13609 [ VWR-13609 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 06/Jun/09 08:04 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-13868 [ VWR-13868 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 06/Jun/09 08:04 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-13901 [ VWR-13901 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 06/Jun/09 01:22 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-8030 [ VWR-8030 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Jun/09 05:29 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-13985 [ VWR-13985 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 12/Jun/09 06:00 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-13981 [ VWR-13981 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 16/Jun/09 04:36 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-8266 [ VWR-8266 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 18/Jun/09 12:08 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-14126 [ VWR-14126 ]
Shack Dougall made changes - 16/Jul/09 09:34 AM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-8551 [ VWR-8551 ]
Maeve Strom made changes - 04/Aug/09 08:30 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-14986 [ VWR-14986 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 05/Aug/09 05:37 PM
Link This issue Relates to VWR-14986 [ VWR-14986 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 05/Aug/09 05:37 PM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-14986 [ VWR-14986 ]
Ellla McMahon made changes - 16/Nov/09 09:41 AM
Link This issue is related to by VWR-16133 [ VWR-16133 ]