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Subversive Writer - 15/May/07 07:25 AM
A "currently worn" tab would be /very/ useful. However, it may be even more useful as a tab which can also be opened as its own window (think RPG-style inventory)
Yes, please, there simply are not enough attachment points. Too many things need to go into the same spots, especially around the head and torso. A hard limit of total prims worn would still keep things from getting ridiculous.
This would also make SL more friendly to those with less innate building ability. Example: If you want your avatar to have a face full of piercings, but are not good with the edit functions, you will currently be in a lot of trouble when trying to adjust the fit of a large set of piercings. From a design standpoint, breaking the jewellery up into smaller sets (1 nose ring, 2 separate earrings, 2 separate eyebrow rings, 3 separate lip rings, 1 nose bar, 1 ear industrial, etc.) makes more sense, and is much more user friendly. The problem is the user runs out of attachment points too quickly. Something that increases attachments will please designers and users alike. I support the suggestion for multiple attachments per point, but I don't think there should be a prim limit, just a higher limit of attachments per point (say 5 per). Some people have spent a LOT of time (or paid someone to spend a lot of time) creating an awesome, detailed, accurate avatar... one that uses a LOT of prims. Limiting the prims per av would make that all for nought.... I'll go a step further saying it would encourage poor craftsmanship in attachments, just to save a prim (can you just imagine signs advertising- "Flexi hair! Only 10 prims!")
I'm not sure either about limiting by prims, as it's hard to say what the limit should be. But a hard limit of attachments in total should be fine. I mean currently we can have what...maybe 20 attachments (may be wrong), with one per attachment point, then the limit could simply be 20 attachments total. You can then place those 20 attachments wherever you want, and go around wearing 20 left-shoes and no other attachments if you really wanted to.
This way we have the same overall limit, but no restriction on where we can put things. Its simply crazy that there is not a neck attachment, given all the jewelry and such that is created in SL. Right now I have to wear my collar on my spine in order to be able to wear anything else in the chest spot. and yes, I think adding a rt and Lt brow would be good. perhaps even a rt and Lt eye with the new prim eyelashes.
From building a prim-av recently, why in the heck does the stomach attachment point not allow a middle-ground between chest and pelvis?! We need an attachment point that attaches around the stomach area but is not essentially the same as the pelvis, as one of the problems I have is that to cover the stomach I need to overlap parts in the pelvis/hips with the chest, which can result in a lump appearing on the front or the back of the avatar during certain animations, or in some dances the parts will even 'slip'.
A piece that angles to be between the two would be INCREDIBLY useful for creating prim stomachs for a full-prim avatar =( I for one would like to see another attach point created, as well as this other stuff. Create one labeled tail. It should be at the base of the spine on the basic av. That way tails just wouldn't be in the way at all.
I agree, a tail attachment point would be useful for all of us furries out there. And the other attachment points possible for this (belly and pelvis) are too often needed for other stuff like prim clothing or less mentionable parts :-)
And I have *needed* the ability to be able to attach more things than one to a given attachment point more often than I could count :-/ Definitely need more attach points! Prim eyelashes and prim nails are two examples, even for those who aren't furries with all of THEIR attachments.
I would love to be able to wear nails AND a ring or two AND pick up and hold something. Long story short -- I'd love to have more configurability with my attachments. This came up during one of Ben's UI triage sessions, and it's certainly a *popular* and *longtime* feature. (As some of you know from the old Feature Voting Tool.) However, I'm marking it as "Needs More Info" because this sort of thing has big design implications as alluded to above... and some graphical mockups would help too.
This sort of thing is realistically unlikely to happen unless a group of devs had the time and resources to commit to it and took it, as well as related avatar enhancements, under an "umbrella" as a project to work on. The same sort of thing applies for other "big wishes" on the Issue Tracker, so feel free to action them similarly. So "Needs More Info" here refers to being more specific about a proposed design that the majority of you can hopefully agree on. "I want more attachments per point!" is a lovely idea, but to make it realistic and actionable, we have to collectively figure out how we'd want to make this happen... then the appropriate Lindens can take a look and reply in kind. Thanks. :D One area to start on this is to create a wiki page to draw up the design, layout the steps, and even post screenshots of what it would look like or how it would work.
If there is a continued interest in this, I can help with the design process. Just IM me. Here is a link to the wiki http://wiki.secondlife.com One solution that shouldn't surprise people or be hard to implement would be to extend the "Center 2" scheme and simply have "second" attachment points for all attachments. You would move permanent attachments that are part of the avatar to (for example) "Right Hand 2", then when you pick up a "Right Hand" cup of coffee it wouldn't blow your hand off.
Additional attachment points: 1. Tail: an attachment point pivoted at the pelvis, but with the same angle as the spine. 2. Neck: an attachment point pivoting in the neck. 3. Belly or Lower Back: pivoting in the lower body, angled between the hip and the spine. 4. Fingers: like Hand, but pivoting as the hand is open and closed. You can very easily see all worn items by entering "(WORN" in the white search text area at the top. Still, a body inventory tab could be very handy. My only concern with this request is that I like the fact that wearing an item that attaches at point X replaces the current attachment. A possible way around that is to change the right-click menu for inventory objects and folders from having simply "wear" to both "wear" and "wear also". "wear" would work the same way it does now. Any attachments at the given point would be replaced. Any instructions for wearable products would continue to be meaningful. "wear also" would add the new item to the attachments at that point. This poses the question, what should happen when we use "attach to" -- should we also have "attach also to"? I think that's more complexity than necessary, and "attach to" could have either behavior by default (the current 'replace', or changed to 'add') and it would be fine, since we only use this when setting up a new object. Torley I'm really not sure how much more info is needed! The premise is simple in the original post;
Instead of one attachment per point, we can have any number we want per point, but a limit to how many attachments we can have in total. I don't think that part is hard. The other part of the suggestion is quite simply a set of folders in a special tab that shows what you're wearing and where on your body it is attached, making it much easier to view and manage attachments. I'm re-opening this because dev-time or not it's a big request and I see no reason to shove it to one side when the solutions are relatively simple. Oh goodness yes. I think I have only 2 or 3 attachment points left. Often when I have to put something on, another attachment goes flying off. Yes I attach in a different spot and edit it up to where I need it. Sometimes that isnt a pretty sight though when I am walking, sitting or dancing. It can either coming pushing out of my body and showing when it shouldnt or cut my neck in half.
Yes please, more attachments. SL's economy will soon come to a grinding hault if I have to stop shopping. @Haravikk, the concept of the extra attachment points are understood. That isn't being put aside. What is wanted is more definition to how the UI and other interfaces will look and feel. Those types of details are not here, and it leaves devs guessing on how to do it. I suggest to create a wiki page to start the design of the different UI elements, so people can look at it and agree.
I'm gonna resolve this again as "need more info". Please see the sub-task VWR-1925 to continue the design effort.
While the UI design element may take up a big chunk of the textual space, it isn't the actual feature request! It is merely an addition that would help make it more workable. I also fail to see how it can be difficult in any-way to understand, the example I gave is just as informative as any image would be.
The actual feature request (a very popular one) is having more attachment points or attachments per-point, as seen by the number of votes this issue is very popular and as such should be left open so it can be seen by anyone wanting to add their votes to it. It is in no-way resolved or in suitable need of closing. Thanks for creating the sub-task though. Please see VWR-1925 for a couple of mock-ups of the system as I described it here.
As for actual implementation, as far as I understand it, each attachment point on an avatar has an entry in the avatar's data-object, these then store a key identifying what is attached to these points. A much better system would be to simply have a list of finite size which lists all attached objects with a constant identifying where on the avatar they are. e.g: Key: 12345 Location: NOSE This allows for much more flexibility in where items can go as there is no limitation, and it would only require a single list opposed to one for every attachment point. It would even make it easier to handle attachments as you only have to go through the list of items that are actually present, rather than looking at each attachment point to see if there is anything there. If the current system even vaguely resembles that already then it shouldn't be difficult to adapt to allow for multiple attachments, and with the UI as shown it wouldn't be especially hard to use (and default behaviour can remain as is with the attachment replace dialogue asking if you want to add, replace or cancel an action. I fear this may result in strange chimera-furry experiments as people combine outfits.... just kidding. I really like this idea. I especially like the idea of simply limiting us to 20 attachments TOTAL, rather than one attachment per spot. It makes much more sense from an end-user perspective.
I'm not sure I like the idea of making a special-case new inventory tab just for this. I'd rather see a new window specifically for attachments and clothing currently worn. Dragging a folder into this window could trigger wearing the items in it. There already IS a window for clothing in the debug menu, although it's rather rudimentary. I noted in VWR-1925 that the folder structure could later be adapted to a kind of drag-and-drop avatar pane/screen later on, is this what you mean? Even cooler would be adapting the Appearance 'screen'; ie it would show your av in a generic pose with little floater windows listing what's attached to each location, you can then drag and drop to add, or use the floaters to remove items from a location. It could even default to have your inventory window neatly filling one side of the screen so it's easier to move things onto your avatar. The drag-and-drop functionality is all there, just don't have the ability to add attachments how we want, or the little floater windows yet. I might try to do a mock-up of that idea later as well.
But I figured a simple hierarchical folder structure would be easier to do to start with, and would hopefully open things up a bit for any budding Open Source UI coder to play around with to create such a design. We currently have 31 attachment points at the avatar, and 7 at the HUD.
I, personally, would be frustrated if I would need to do without some of my attachments (yes, sometimes, I max them out). So, if we keep the number available attachments, I'd like the idea... Sorry I didn't realise we had that many, I have amended the original text to reflect this, I too do not wish to lose any spaces
Mutliple attachments per point is really something that's needed. With sculpties and flexi-prims, prim clothing is becoming much more popular, eslecially since SL's clothing system is clunky and outdated.
Multiple attachement point would also be greatly cheered by the furries, who due to the way their avatars function, have even LESS roon to add attachments. If you could have, say, three more attachment points (including new secondary attachments at existing points), what would you choose?
This is something that I have thought of as a programmer myself. The secret would be to make it as easy as possible for the people programming the system. Make it easy to re-use existing code or use features that are already in the code.
The idea that I came up with is this: Allow multiple attachments per attachment point. I thought 5 (we have 5 fingers - 1 ring for each). The Edit -> Detach Object -> <location> menu would open another menu (this code already exists) for which attachment in that particular location. Take Off -> Detach -> <Location> would open another pie menu (code already exists) for which attachment in that location. New attachments at a location would just drop into the first available slot. This would give full backwards compatibility with attachments already created. Except for allowing 5 times the attachments as previous, this should be quite workable. With the advent of sculptie prims, prim counts for each attachment should be dropping though (I am in the process of building a sculptie cat avatar - head is only 3 prims). neck....definitely!!! pretty pretty please..the sooner the better
belts (with or without attachments) head(forehead?) for hats and such or back..since many weapons have sheathes that are worn on the spine right now and that can mess with clothing @Bohkka Rasikas
At it's simplest, programming this is just a case of taking the existing structure and turn it into a list of key/integer pairs. So it would look something like this: 1. "12345-1234-123145-12313" AVATAR_HEAD 2. "31231-1231-156373-12313" AVATAR_LEFT_LEG Currently I imagine what we have is that each location (head, left-leg etc.) has a 'slot' and whatever key in that slot is what will appear there. This is not very good as expanding it requires more slots to be added that may or may not contain anything. If we had a simple list then all the viewer has to do is go through each entry pulling out the key, looking at the integer constant and placing it in the correct location. The overhead of doing this should be little or no more intensive than we have currently. To avoid ridiculous sizes of attachment lists we just put a limit on how many you can have, of 31 (the current maximum). @Tofu Linden As noted, extra attachment points isn't ideal in the slightest. We already have the space in our unused attachment slots, they just need re-organised into a more useful and flexible data format to make multiple attachments per-location perfectly feasible. Extra attachment points ARE needed, but that's a seperate issue, I'd say.
More than absolubtly ANYTHING, we need multiple spots on the hands. A hard limit sounds like a good idea, but as we currently have 29, I'm stronly opposed to the reduction to 20 that lex proposed. if it's feasible, 36 would be a nice number. I also agree with the notion that a hard prim limit would be a bad thing, and lead to lower quality work. although it shouldn't be too much of an issue with sculpted prims. This is a great idea... attachment points should be like folders and we shoudl be able to click on a cross-section of a body on the attachment points and have a pop-up menu appear wiith each item attached there.
We also should have "attachment point objects" which are inventory objects that have the X, Y, Z, and orientation data of an attachment (so we can have an easy way to attach different things in the exact same way) We've imported this for future discussion in a Resident eXperience meeting -- it came up recently at our UI bug triage.
W00t! Anyone else with UI design ideas had best start attaching them to this issue (Choose "Create sub-task" in the menu on the left)!
One other one that I still haven't had a chance to mock-up yet is one in which the view changes to that of the appearance menu, however at the same time all other UI windows are hidden, your inventory window appears on the right (showing only objects and clothes) and a number of small windows appear next to attachment points, allowing you to see which point has what even more quickly (and more visually). May require some attachment points that are basically the same (pelvis and stomach for example) to be combined into a single mini-window. This one would however be in addition to the full-overview attachments tab since that does not require the avatar to stop moving to tweak attachments. Tidied up the issue a bit since the sub-tasks now cover UI issues
I just noticed a comment from one of last-month's bug-triages on the wiki (thanks to the new search actually, yay!):
"Imported for internal discussion; general feeling was that we should support up to 3 attachments per point." I'd like to point out that there is that with the technical notes I've mentioned there is zero technical reason why a limit of 3 per point would be desirable, especially if the interface can support unlimited without too much trouble. Yes, an overall limit is needed to prevent ridiculous avatars with a kazillion primitives on them (and to reduce the payload of avatar data), but increasing a limit that isn't necessary means it's still around to cause problems =( The Wiki entry is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/2007-10-09 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Feature
Reopened
Major
Multiple attachments per attachment point
Closed
