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Trice Beam added a comment - 16/Nov/07 09:42 PM
Screen 1 is full of graphic errors.
as you can see in screen 2 it gets worse over time.
in this Non-windlight screen #3 the area as it should look with out the rendering issue.
Running on an ATi Radeon X1600 Pro.
As you can see, same problem. BTW: Had to attach as a file... LL used Java for their ss uploader, and it locks up when I try to upload. Who the heck uses Java for file transfer? >_> I have reported this problem in the new Windlight FirstLook client (ID #1028625). My graphics card is a ATI Radeon 9550 AGP.
As Trice Beam says, it gets worse over time. I'm considering the Windlight client unusable until this is fixed. I have linked a couple of other issues to here, as they seem the same.
I also have this, but only when VBO is turned on. One way I can generally make it happen consistently is if I turn in circles in the same spot (with plenty of objects around Do any of you who have this problem, also have VBO on, and does it go away if you turn VBO off? Also happening on my ATI x850 after a short period of time.
Windows Xp pro Latest catalyst drivers. Disabling VBO has resolved this for me.
Gah .That description is obscene.
You can attach files to issues. It would be best to copy the detailed system specs into a .txt and attach that, rather than having them within the description. I have a Radeon X1800XT. I've observed similar issues in the old client, but VERY rarely, and never anywhere near as severe as these pictures. I have no issues with windlight at all. add x800XT AGP to the list as well.
win XP pro SP2 all up to date generic P4 3.0ghz with generic 2gigs ram happens with ATI WDM driver package 6-6_xp-2k_dd_ccc_wdm_enu_33678.exe and the latest 7-10_xp32_dd_ccc_wdm_enu_53250.exe WindLight First Look 1.18.5(73655) November 14, 2007 Same problem, just spin around a few times.. Would also like to confirm that turning off VBO seemed to fend off the traingular horde.
Same here....
Second Life 1.18.5 (73655) Nov 13 2007 12:57:54 (Second Life WindLight) You are at 247182.9, 282283.1, 68.1 in Blue Ocean located at sim3236.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.45.1:12035) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3200 MHz) Disabling VBO has resolved this for me. Adjusted the title to indicate that the problems seem to be in the VBO system, as so far the disabling VBO workaround seems to be working for everyone.
Hi, the same here on my PC.
Have win xp, a pentium Core2 6600, So it is obvious...this problem is not only on ATI-Cards... Had such a problem, after this porblem occured...that every other start with windlight...AND the standard viewer gave me the same triangle view.....was completly messed up. Tested it 4 times.....after it occured 1sttime....every other start of windlight and normal viewer gave me the same. Feared my graphic card was destroyed. Then my PC crashed completly (blue screen). After i restarted my PC....everything was ok again. Bye Thanks for the reports on this! So far, all confirmed reports appear to be on ATI cards with VBO on. I've retitled the summary and linking to our internal Issue Tracker, as we've known about this for some weeks, too.
MasterDave: I'm also on a Q6600 and 8800GTS (the 640MB model) and am unable to reproduce this. Please provide more substantial details, and try updating your drivers to the newest stable ones if you haven't yet done so. Just a brief note to say that this behavior has returned under the new WL build released just before the Thanksgiving weekend. It was seen again in my viewer, despite the installation of the latest Cataylst and driver updates on my Radeon 9700 Pro card that were required before the new build would run. Will provide more details and pics when I have more time.
Would like to add for now that a partly successful WORKAROUND seems to be to change the graphics setting to one of the lower-quality defaults, at least while in an environment with a very high prim count or many large items. In the worst instance seen, I was at the Velvet in Romero, and there was a contest to see how many oddball items guests could attach to their various attachment points, so the rendering load was exceptionally high at the time. Moving the camera away from highly complex scenes did not seem to do much to fix the problem once it cropped up. But reducing graphics settings did, and allowed me to continue for quite some time without shutting down the viewer. On a possibly unrelated note, I did see that the avatar impersonators were coming in very handy in keeping the sim and my viewer stable through an event that would almost certainly crashed at least my viewer and possibly the sim and any time in the quite recent past. In light of this experience, it also occurs to me that my suggestion that megaprims might somehow be implicated seems to have less foundation in fact? At least, I realize that there is a highly complex scene behind the screening walls that I've erected in Huineng to reduce strain on the viewer, and the complexity of that scene (an ad farm with a huge jumble of signs, scripted items, and particle pollution) might just as well be the source of the problems as my earlier conjecture related to megaprims. More detailed tech info and selected screenshots to follow. (My earlier reporting on this issue appears under duplicate issue Additional illustrations of bug as it appears on an ATI Radeon 9700-equipped machine, running November's second WindLight viewer release.
CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2002 MHz)
Memory: 2047 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Graphics Card: RADEON 9700 PRO x86/MMX/3DNow!/SSE2 OpenGL Version: 2.0.7058 WinXP Release LLMozLib Version: 1.1.0 (Mozilla GRE:1.8.0.12_0000000000) Packets Lost: 628/57644 (1.1%) I have this problem on my machine as well. Disabling VBO is an effective workaround for me to make it stop, however, it greatly reduces my frames per second. To disable VBO, on the login screen push Preferences, go to the Graphics Tab, hit the Hardware Options button, and disable VBO (uncheck it). Ok, I have this problem as well and my specs are as follows:3
Second Life 1.18.5 (74642) Nov 28 2007 16:14:54 (Second Life WindLight) You are at 231862.3, 290569.3, 25.4 in Diegoland located at sim2988.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.44.7:13005) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2392 MHz) But I think that I have discovered something. It appears to be related to Alpha textures. I keep my hardware settings window minimized and toggle VBO off and on to eliminate the triangles because my fps drops by 75% with it disabled. Anyway, the last standard viewer release, (Second Life 1.18.5 (3) ), I started noticing if "show light radius for selection" was enabled, I would get these textures around the globe that represented the light radius while editing. These were ALWAYS nearby textures that contained an alpha channel. I have also observed that with the WindLight viewer, the triangles would also be covered in textures that were nearby and also contained alpha channels. It was not obvious at first because of the textures applied to the strange triangles could be anything and sometimes the alpha part of the textures were not shown. I have been getting the triangles more frequently and had the opportunity to observe that they were always alpha textures. If you would move very quickly, they would appear, spin around and there they were. I asked a friend if he knew of an area that might not contain any alpha textures. He directed me to one of his builds in Diegoland. There were no alpha textures inside the build, possibly some outside, so I plugged the only opening in the room with a plywood prim. I started panning the camera quickly, spun around and around both directions for 20 minutes. Not once did one of the triangles appear. I can pretty much be convinced that there is a connection with the triangels and alpha channels. Please look into this and the relationship with the "show light radius for selection" introduced recently I would just like to add something. (since I cannot edit my previous comment) This vertex triangle problem almost exclusively occurs in Windlight. I have seen it in a handful of occasions in the regular viewers, but it is never persistent. I have noticed it the most in my avatar's hair which, by the way, is prim and has a lot of transparency in it. The above poster may be on to something. Is there a way to change my OpenGL Version to make some kind of difference?
I have had this problem for some time now (predating windlight) using ATI Radeon 9800 pro.
I can still see this problem in the Dec 4 release of windlight. Maybe it's a little harder to trigger – I haven't tested enough to be sure, except that it's still possible.
My repro: 1. Go to someplace with lots of textures (I went to Sarah Nerd's freebie paradise) The "turn in circles 4 times" didn't work for me today, but that could be lots of things. Here's my specs: Second Life 1.18.5 (74965) Dec 4 2007 19:23:49 (Second Life WindLight) You are at 254586.3, 291716.8, 48.7 in NineInchNerds located at sim4632.agni.lindenlab.com (63.210.159.28:13005) CPU: Intel Pentium M Series Processor (598 MHz) The December 4th release of 1.18.5 (74965) did not fix the triangle problem for me either. Enabling VBO resulted in exactly the same problems as before, and just as rapidly.
Windows XP SP2, ATI Radeon x1300 Pro with Catalyst 7.11 Same problem here too:
Second Life 1.18.5 (74965) Not fixed with the 1.18.5 (74965) release for me, either (Radeon X800XT, WinXP SP2, very recently updated graphics drivers).
With this latest version, I still get the same problem.
I tested in my forest in Lunata which has a lot of alpha textures (if that matters). I noticed the following: Full Screen Mode: takes a couple minutes for it to occur in mouselook or non-mouselook spinning around ATI X1650 512MB AGP: I'm disappointed to hear this is still a problem, and thankful for your reports – we'll investigate these further.
Also have this issue with the latest release. Unlike a few others I have never seen this in the normal viewer at all.
For me it is fixed by opening preferences, sliding the setting to one notch higher, or lower.....then back again, and apply. Running XP SP2, ATI 9600, AMD 2200+, 1 GB RAM 1.18.5(74965) did not fix this issue. I still get the triangle glitches with VBO turned on. ATI Radeon x1650 w/512MB
As of the latest update to the WindLight viewer this glitch still appears. The "triangle glitches" (I believe them to be over stretched geometry), will appear when VBO is active and the camera is moved quickly.
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro I continue to get this glitch on my desktop - decreasing draw "fixed" it for awhile then BOOM back
Second Life 1.18.5 (75173) Dec 6 2007 10:26:10 (Second Life WindLight) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2792 MHz) The December 17th release of Windlight Viewer 1.18.6 (75762) still continues to see this issue. I enabled it, walked around for a few minutes, and couldn't discern any new or different behavior worth reporting. Sorry guys, but it's definitely not solved for me. Is this perhaps one of those things Catalyst 7.12 might fix?
Windows XP SP2 32-bit, ATI x1300 Pro Second Life 1.18.6 (75762) Dec 13 2007 16:08:39 (Second Life WindLight)
x1950 pro gpu 7.11 drivers windows xp. This version is still making the issue although it takes much longer and must have many people/objects to tigger the VBO bug and there is fewer trash objects clogging up the screen. if there is few people i went nearly 40 mintues with out gettng this issue, when the club filled with many avatars (like 15 to 20) the issue came back. Same here, the latest Windlight Viewer 1.18.6 (75762) still show triangle glitches on my system when VBO is enabled. I saw no difference compared to previous versions of the viewer, in other words, I saw the glitches within a minute after logging in. This was in the Ross/Quentin region, with no other avatars in sight.
ATI 9600 Pro, 7.11 drivers, and Windows XP SP2. @ Marcus 17 Dec 6:24pm
Of course Catalyst 7.12 might fix it. Too bad it doesn't exist yet. Still seeing this on my first or second run of WL (75762) since ATI does not appear to have yet released drivers newer than 7.11. Not holding my breath. Disappears if I turn off VBO, though the view is not quite so shiny with VBOs turned off. Thanks for your latest reports, I'll let our devs know this is still a problem for you.
 I would just like to make a comment that I often see this issue on my ATI Raden X850 card even in the normal client. I don't think it's just related to Windlight. I usually only see it when I've been in a session for extended periods, and It's usually a given if I open two clients simultaneously. I've always thought it was due to my card heating up, but that's just a personal theory. And yes I have VBO turned on.
Second Life 1.18.6 (75762) Dec 13 2007 16:08:39 (Second Life WindLight)
CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2048 MHz) While the artifact problem with VBO enabled is reduced, it's still definitely there. Generally the artifacts are appearing on horizons, and feet, and there's less of them than before. Whereas before the viewer update the artifacts appeared everywhere, and were enough to completely block the screen. Again, disabling VBO removes the problem. I had an x850xt pe edition as the GPU I picked when I first built the machine years ago before I replaced my older machines GPU with a 512mb x1950pro.
The x850xt pe used to do this on older non-beta clients back in spring 2007 or so on the x850xt pe, but then they solved the issue in that client and I never saw the problem on either the x850xt pe or the x1950 pro. I do not see the problem on the non-windlight clients anymore. Both my machines are liquid cooled everything is. The GPU is always maxed at a cold 90F, so it is not over heating. it's not even overclocked all gpu test I ran passed. I gave up air cooling heatsinks years ago for this very reason they did not do a good job of cooling the CPU or GPU. I use the ati machine with my nivida machine to play "2 players" on everquest 2 and there is no overheating signs at all with the liquid cooling ever, it even blows out cold air. MY new nivida GPU machine has never seen this issue from any SL cilent. To many ATI GPU have this so it is a software or driver issue somewhere. The Nivda machine however Is highly overclocked GPU/CPU with liquid colling and it is stable with all SL clients no errors it would be the one to make overheating graphic errors. [UPDATE] We hate this bug too and want to fix it ASAP! We thought it was fixed before but it continues to turn up for some of you. We've gotten good info above, and here's what we need to confirm in order to continue investigating – your help is very much appreciated. In future comments, please:
Thanks very much in advance for helping us to fix this – with the above info, what we are going to try to do is setup similar conditions so hopefully the bug will show up frequently for us to investigate, track down the cause, and fix it. Here's a recreation of the problem:
----------------------- You are at 256649.2, 257501.0, 19.4 in Rua located at sim2700.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.42.196:13005) CPU: AMD Athlon MP/Mobile Athlon (Palomino core) (1532 MHz) VBO enabled; Set view distance to 256m to increase number of graphical objects. Does not appear immediately; spinning in place shows problem after a few seconds. Also noticed lags/pauses of several seconds each in screen updates with VBO on. Problem is not observed when VBO is disabled. My assumption is that it happens when the VBO buffer fills. Artifacts are usually triangular, and usually, but not always, have one vertex in center of screen (0,0?). Artifacts are disappearing after a period of several seconds to a minute; the scene involves water, so perhaps scene changes cause polygon updates to replace the corrupted ones? Also notice that some textures on more-distant objects remain grey with VBO on; they appear to load, at least faster, with VBO off. This may or may not be related to the problem in question. ATI released their 7.12 drivers yesterday, and I installed them. Good news for me, it seems to have fixed the triangle/VBO problems! In my previous post you could read that I get triangles almost immediately after logging in, and disabling VBO fixed that. Now, with the new 7.12 driver, I can enable VBO again, and everything seems to be working fine.
knock on wood I'll keep experimenting to see if 7.12 really fixed it for me. After upgrading to 7.12, I did see a new problem (bad font rendering in the menu bar), but I won't go into that here... -------- Second Life 1.18.6 (75762) Dec 13 2007 16:08:39 (Second Life WindLight) I just tried the latest 12.20 Catalyst driver and still has the bug. Annoying.
WindLight client is also the latest version. System Win XP Prof, no SP's. CPU: AMD Athlon 2200+ Ram: 768 MB VGA: Sapphire Ati Radeon X1600 Pro on AGP Problem shows only when VBO is on. If turning it on, then not showing immediately, but after a few minutes when playing with the camera and zooming around. Without VBO my frame rate is the half as it should be, good experience... Installed 7.12 driver. Not fixed for me, actually seems worse and I have lower framerates. I don't recommend installing it, I can not even do a system restore to return to 7.11.
CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2392 MHz) Just want to add something, maybe it IS important-I had this bug for the first time today with any of the viewers, and it only appeared after I (because I had not thought about that earlier, stupid me!) had activated anti-aliasing manually in the card settings (ATI Radeon X600). VBO was obviously turned on-I have turned it off now, still waiting for the spikes to reappear. (Note: I a NOT using the most current drivers because the last ones that I updated to gave me errors; am still waiting for a fixed driver-everything else is working fine, though, so it's NOT a driver issue here)
Alyx Sands might have come up with an idea. Although his discription was was a little confusing, I decided to disable Anti-Alasing and Anisotropic Filtering with the ATI control panel instead of using the SL client. After doing this, I have panned my camera around like a complete fool and HAVE NOT HAD ANY TRIANGULATION WHAT-SO-EVER.
See pic #1 COMPLETELY STABLE. OMG! OMG! OMG! hehe. Maybe the client is not able to overide the graphic card settings. People, give it a shot and see what happens for you! ( a premature YEAH!) Yrrek, I'm actually a SHE.
I didn't intend to be confusing, it was just that I noticed this issue ONLY after switching on AA and I assumed (quite rightly, apparently) that everyone save me had it switched on anyway. I'm still not entirely sure what the consequences would be-make the viewer kick the ATI control panel? (Metaphorically speaking; some kind of override?!) Sorry Alyx. lol
Everyone can forget my post above. I ran SL for 6 hours not once getting the triangulation. No longer the case. This morning within 2 minutes with all the settings the same, it was back. Oh well! I checked again: Previous settings before the issue were like the attached screenshot-both set to "standard", meaning AA is set to "2". I never fiddled with the anisotropic filter setting. I only turned up the AA setting from 2 to 4, and only then did the spiking happen. I then turned it back down to "2". I have to stress that even with VBO turned on in the viewer, I NEVER had these spikey things before- they ONLY appeared after I had changed AA from 2 to 4.
I'm still watching this and welcoming further details per what I requested above ( http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3258#action_38999
 ) , please keep the info I asked for coming – it's appreciated and needed for fixing this issue.
Has changing the ATI driver settings as suggested by Alyx Sands and Yrrek Gran worked for anyone else? See pictures above. Torley, my solution was only a temporary fluke and made no difference in the long run. The updated ATI driver was of no help whatsoever.
My only solution is to keep the "Hardware" tab minimized and when the screen gets filled enough with triangles that I can't see anymore, I just maximize the window, toggle the VBO off and then back on. I adjusted my settings as Alyx had suggested, and found no improvement. She has not reported any current experiences, with her settings. I have done some testing with alpha textures present and with none present and still believe there is some connection there. There has been no feedback on this for the past week. I can only assume that everyone that has been experiencing this, still has the problem. PU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3014 MHz)
Memory: 1024 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Graphics Card: Sapphire RADEON X1600 PRO (Omega 3.8.421) x86/SSE2 OpenGL Version: 2.0.6956 WinXP Release LLMozLib Version: 1.1.0 (Mozilla GRE:1.8.0.12_0000000000) Packets Lost: 1/133820 (0.0%) Viewer Digest: ffac34f4-0452-2fcc-16b7-c2868f0923ef I am still getting the issue above with the 7,12 drivers, with the extra that SL will crash out hard at regular intervals, as in at least once an hour. the crashing clears up when I switch back to 7.11 the workarounds such as turning on/off VBO or shaders work for a little bit before it all starts happening again, which I think is mainly just reloading the graphics memory cleanly. I just switched to the omega drivers today to see if they would help any, if anything worse, but at least I'm not crashing every 5 minues grins I have disabled "Render Dynamic Reflections" in the Debug and also disabled "Bump map and Shiny" in the graphics tab. I have had a remarkable change in the triangular patterns. I would guess about a 98% decrease in the event. For what it is worth, lol.
We still need and would appreciate more data to investigate, and hopefully fix this effectively. Please, if you're affected and haven't comment yet, provide the info I requested above, most importantly:
Unfortunately, as much as I wish I could continue to contribute information, I can't. Other problems concerning AGP based cards from ATI forced me to rollback to Catalyst 7.7. I really hope most other people aren't in the same boat, and that ATI gets this stupidity sorted out on all fronts. Good luck, guys!
I seem to be having the same issues here.
Although I am not running a windows or ATI cards. Hardware Overview: Machine Name: iMac GeForce FX 5200: Chipset Model: GeForce FX 5200 The Graphics driver is not upgradable. I still haven't had any spike issues again, but I also can't really contribute anything else as, just like Marcus, I can't use the most recent ATI drivers at all-they frequently give me errors and problems...
Have this problem, including on latest Windlight client.
Second Life 1.18.6 (76886) Jan 3 2008 17:26:44 (Second Life WindLight) CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (1526 MHz) Ok, there is a definite connection between RenderDynamicReflections and the spikes.
I have had this set to FALSE for several days and very rarely get a single spike and when I do, it is small and corrects itself right away. Today, I tested again, zooming the camera in and out as fast and as far as I could. NO Triangles. (This is with VBO enabled) I turned RenderDynamicReflections back on and made the exact same test. Triangles all over the place. Will someone else PLEASE confirm this? Client>Debug>RenderDynamicReflections>TRUE CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2392 MHz) @Yrrek: That's good to know. I'm unable to test this personally, but it's REALLY important to understand (if you don't already) that we DO NOT support RenderDynamicReflections at this time... hence why it's buried in Client menu. In the future, it would be nice as an added graphical enhancement, but for the meantime, anyone experiencing this problem should make sure that dynamic reflections are OFF, so we're able to better hone in on causes that we should support.
 I got the same problem.
Thanks to this this troubleticket I deactivated the VBO rendering and now I don't I use Radeon X1650 Pro, with Catalyst version 7.7 I've activated VBO for testing, and as soon as I zoom in or out, I get these strange triangles again Second Life 1.18.6 (76886) Jan 3 2008 17:26:44 (Second Life WindLight) CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (2087 MHz) @Torley: Sorry to disappoint you there, but I never even touched RenderDynamicReflections, and double checked it's turned to "off". I only got the spikes with VBO switched on AND AA set to 4.
This issue seemed solved to me but I am not ready to call it fixed until i hang around for a few days.
Then you guys updated to this new version of windlight. the ISsue has not come but ther eare tons of other problems with my ATI 1950 pro and the new ati 8.1 drivers. No water refecltions... no distortion effects no water like any other windlight version. No water controls showing ... ALpha channels on some scripted objects not now visable at certain distance when they should not be and was before... hardware skining and avatar cloth options are grayed out unable to be used. Was this part of the code removed or disabled? Second Life 1.18.6 (77495) Jan 22 2008 15:30:40 (Second Life WindLight) You are at 211155.2, 300033.7, 20.2 in Drachen located at sim2036.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.40.40:13006) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3398 MHz) For the time being, we're recommending to stick to the 7.10 ATI drivers – later ones (including 7.12 and 8.1) have shader brokenness and other sad, ugly defects which we're working with ATI to fix ASAP. If you need to download:
» http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/radeonxprevious-xp.html I'm on a Radeon X1800 Mobility with the 7.12 drivers (are the 8.1 a new version?), and I have the sky and glow working (which made me very happy) but like Trice, the hardware skinning and avatar cloth are grayed out for me whereas they were not previously, and there are no water reflections. However, I'm thinking that the 7.12 drivers themselves may be having issues, and not just WL's use of them. I also use World of Warcraft, and since installing the 7.12 drivers, I've been getting the same sort of weird triangle rendering glitches that I was getting on WL. I will say, however, that until I installed the 7.12 drivers, I was unable to see glow or the sky textures of WL.
Still an issue for anyone? Please confirm with the newest, stable ATI drivers – marking as Cannot Reproduce, frequency of reports has dropped.
The problem has gotten worse with Windlight 1.9 for me.
In the previous version, after discovering RenderDynamicReflections was enabled in Debug, I disabled it. In 1.9 the triangulation is back with vengeance. 1.9 is almost unusable for me. OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) This issue is far from resolved. Reports on the forums of people with the newest ATI drivers experiencing this still.
As for me, the newest stable ATI drivers that don't give me errors all the time are not the newest ones, I'm probably not even allowed to complain....I wish ATI would get their stuff sorted out. I am still having the triangled vertex buffer stretching with my ATI 9700 Pro graphics card. It does this stretching with driver versions 7.11 to 8.1 Catalysts (8.1 being ATI's latest for my card) It only does this for me with the Windlight viewer; I can run the RC viewer with all settings maxed without ever seeing a stretchy triangle. I can run the Windlight viewer in Ultra mode without the triangles IF I turn off VBO in the hardware button's settings within the viewer. Lowering the settings in Windlight to mid/medium and customizing the other settings (lower draw distance for example) seem to be a workaround for the problem, but the triangles still appear occasionally. I have noticed that using the camera controls conjures up this bug the most often. (in windlight only)
CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2002 MHz) Torley, can you please clarify your quote above "marking as Cannot Reproduce, frequency of reports has dropped". To me that reads as if you closed it because there were fewer new reports, while we are all still suffering from the problem, and waiting (mostly) patiently for it to be fixed.
For the record, I managed to get my hands on some OEM drivers for Cat 8.1 that would work on my laptop, and this issue was unchanged. I don't understand how this can't be reproduced. It's about the easiest thing to screw up I've seen to date. A few textures on screen at once (any packed sim does it in a matter of minutes), a quick pan of the camera (alt+click somewhere else) and that does it. Sometimes it doesn't even take that. Just walking around long enough does it too, and by long enough I mean about an extra 30 seconds.
I'm always checking for new drivers, always looking for new WL updates, and they all give me the same issue. As with everyone else, when VBO is disabled it's not an issue, but two frames per second is, so that also cripples the viewer. CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2657 MHz) I'd like to report that the triangle glitch, as of 1.19.0 (79185) (Windlight) is still very much alive and well. I'm on the 8.1 ATI drivers. I have still observed many glitches, and many much bigger than the ones shown here. Sometimes it's like I'm looking at nothing but a huge wall of gitch, and the "triangle" from a certain object may appear to stretch across half of an entire sim. I'm attaching several screenshots that I took tonight with a friend to demonstrate what is being observed. The glitches aren't always technically "triangles" but they are definitely difficult to deal with. Although the glitches seem to occur less often in the new version of windlight, they still happen frequently, and are a hassle to deal with.
CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (1994 MHz) Shot one taken at the station. Screen two taken at the station. (See the screenshots at the top of the page)
Screen three taken at the station. (See the screenshots at the top of the page)
Last screen at the station.
P.S. after reviewing the comments above mine, I'd like to add that I also noticed these glitches a great deal with panning when the camera using alt click and alt-ctrl click. Sorry Torley but I'm totally confused now. Are the 8.1 drivers now approved to use or not? I haven't seen this a lot, but that's because I turned off the settings that were creating it, and have been having trouble running ANY viewer release in recent days. I've also had other priorities though and just have no time for thorough testing (at least not for negative pay). Right now the Alt, Crtl, Shift key chords for camera control are working so badly for me that I'm only using SL at the lowest possible graphics settings. As this may very well be a problem on my machine unrelated to the recent RCs and Windlight builds I hesitate to add input.
But it would be good to know if there are now ATI drivers that are actually compatible with SL. Until i see a really clear statement, though, I'm staying with 7.10 as recommended in your 25 Jan comment just before the vague one of 7 Feb about "most recent" drivers. Please in future offer version numbers for the drivers recommended or presumed stable It's also probably worth noting that Catalyst 8.1 is still causing AGP users grief. Most of us are stuck on 7.7... I've been lucky enough to get 7.10 to work for me for the moment.
Do us a favor, Lindens, since you have more pull with ATI than we do. Tell them you have AGP card users. Please, please tell them to get off their butts and FIX their drivers for AGP cards. There's a special AGP hotfix for 8.1 buried in their knowledge base, but it crashes all over the place. I could not stay on SL more than a couple minutes with 8.1. If I sound frustrated... it's because I am. Hehe. But in this case it's with ATI, not LL. Thanks for reopening this and keeping interest alive – I'll confirm with Team WindLight re: driver versions.
I apologize for the confusion on this. It's fine to be frustrated with us as well, because it's my fault for not following up more with ATI. I had stopped seeing this on my machine for the past few months as well as other folks in the company and thought it was fixed.
ANYONE still getting this bug with the 8.1 drivers, please give me info on what card you have, whether it's AGP/PCIE, and exact steps you took to get this to show up if you can. Am I correct in hearing that this affects more AGP users than PCIE? I have been using the 8.1 drivers with a few ATI PCIE cards and one AGP 9800 Pro card for about a month without any problems in XP and Vista. Despite other minor bugs with 8.1that I was able to feature mask around, I haven't seen the triangle bug since using them. The moment I can repro it consistently I will get this to ATI. I'll also be talking to them in the interim. @Marcus, it sounds like you're having problems with a x1300 AGP card? I'll see if I can get a hold of one and a box to test it on. OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) Please note that is a PCI buss (not PCIe) Currently using 8.1 drivers but had the same issue with 7.11 and 7.14. When I installed Windlight 1.9, I was using 7.14 drivers. After the triangulation returned, I re-installed 8.1. No difference. There is absolutely nothing that needs to be done to re-create this. Standing in one place, facing the same direction for 10 minutes, everything is fine. No spinning or zooming necessary. Then it almost seems as if someone entering the area can trigger the triangles. Sometimes it is not just triangles but huge sheets of nearby textures covering most of the screen. The best performance that I have seen so far, was with 1.18.6 when the alpha textures would loose transparency at a close distance. I have mentioned earlier, that alpha textures appear to me to be somehow involved in this. When the alpha textures were borked in 1.18.6, the triangulation almost disappeared for me, and from the sound of it, a lot of others as well. see my post: 02/Dec/07 05:52 PM - above. Still seeing this issue just as often as always. For me Windlight is still totally unusable.
Like several others though, I cannot use the newest 8.1 drivers. The most recent stable drivers I can use are the 7.10 drivers. Reproduction is simple. Log in, stand still for less than 5 minutes and watch the ever changing array of triangles. Don't need to move, turn, do anything, just stand there and watch. Second Life 1.19.0 (79185) Feb 1 2008 16:24:20 (Second Life WindLight) You are at 270571.0, 298383.4, 21.8 in Melanoma located at sim2703.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.42.199:12035) CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (1797 MHz) Second Life 1.19.0 (79185) Feb 1 2008 16:24:20 (Second Life WindLight)
You are at 260055.2, 231977.1, 86.6 in Blackmount located at sim3549.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.46.60:13005) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) Okay-I did an experiment today. I was still using the old Windlight version until today I noticed the server update had apparently killed my water reflections (I could click and change them, you just wouldn't see them). So I switched on VBO. AA set to 2. Nothing happened. Restarted SL, with AA set to 4 and VBO still on. EGAD, triangles everywhere as soon as I was on line. I switched off VBO in Preferences and as soon as I did that, all the triangles in my view disappeared. So far, so bad-that was what had happened before. I then updated to the newest Windlight and tried the same routine again. NO triangles. But funny enough, enabling VBO slows down my framerate (wtf?) so I switched it off again. but as far as I could see, no triangle glitches. AT LEAST not in ten minutes of camming around like an idiot, whereas in the old viewer they would appear instantly even without camming, and they would appear within a minute. NOW, ALL THIS with an OLDER driver version (as I have said above, I can't even use 7.10 without getting errors)- I still use 7.4, and don't have any problems with it. I got the glitch with the old Windlight version, but not the new one. At least for my config then, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the driver version. I wish people wouldn't insist on recommending the newest drivers as some kind of cure-all. The X600 is a PCI Express card (I think!) Anyone else with an X600 who has news? I should have mentioned that for the brief period I used 8.1, I experienced no triangle issues with VBO on. But I could never use it very long. I did experience a definite progressive frame rate drop with it on, similar to what was mentioned by Alyx. And it was The Windlight client that crashed... not XP or my computer in general. Sorry for not being more specific.
Second Life 1.19.0 (79185) Feb 1 2008 16:24:20 (Second Life WindLight) CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (2104 MHz) @Zen... Confirmed. An ATI x1300 AGP Pro card with 256M of memory. This is not a third party card. I'm using it with Windows XP, SP2, 32-bit, and my current AGP speed is 8x. No extras, no fills. Thanks for your work. @Torley... Thanks for being a diligent liason on this issue. It was requested that those using the 8.1 drivers to try describe exactly how the triangles appear. That's a little difficult to do, as they do sometimes happen randomly. I will be moving/camming around, and suddenly the glitches appear (though as I noted, not quite as often as in previous versions). I did however, notice, that it happens a great deal when I am alt-zooming onto an avatar, either my own or someone elses. certain angles (they don't appear to be patterned or regular) will cause the avatar to explode into a mass of triangles and vertice glitches as seen in my screenshots above. I'm afraid that as of right now, that's about as specific as I can get. I also noted, however, that often the vertice glitches appear to be connecting two objects, such as between an avatar, and a block that is next to it.
I was flying about at Winged Isle, and I had one of the larger glitches occur. I figured I would post it here for reference. The glitches are namely the huge blue sheet you see over the entire left side of my screen, and more transparent glitch over the ocean on the right side of my screen.
Hardware Overview:
Machine Name: iMac GeForce FX 5200: Chipset Model: GeForce FX 5200 DIMM0/J22: Size: 512 MB DIMM1/J20: Size: 256 MB Total memory 768 MB DDR SDRAM I was just at a dance facing the stage dancing (Navy blue dress) and having no issues. A friend just out of frame to my right, (Picture Triangles1.bmp) dancing as well.
As she would come into frame (Red dress), the triangles would appear (Picture Triangles2.bmp). Because she was also dancing, she would go out of frame (Picture Triangles1.bmp). Back and forth, triangles in frame, none when she was out of frame. This went on like clockwork for about 3 songs, 12 minutes or so. I had her make a list of everything that she was wearing and it is available if needed. It was quite obvious that the triangulation was directly attributed to that AV. After that, I could not reproduce the effect again. Second Life 1.19.0 (79185) Feb 1 2008 16:24:20 (Second Life WindLight) I experience 70% performancedrop when enabling VBO with ATI 8.1 drivers.
All textures are blurred no matter what the performance slider is placed on and what texture memory is selected. Turning off Basic shaders makes textures sharp again but shiny object loose their texture and the moon is framed by a gray square. Dirver set to max quality (settings do not have influence on the problems). Second Life 1.19.0 (79674) Feb 8 2008 16:51:12 (Second Life WindLight) Second Life Server 1.19.0.79368 CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2404 MHz) Update on my previous comment:
I was running the latest 8.1 drivers from the ATI(AMD) website with the mentioned problems, but installing the 8.1 drivers from Sapphires website solved the blurry texture problem and the shiny and moon problem with basic shaders off. The drivers seem to be the same but the Driver Packaging Version differs slightly. This is the one from Sapphire that works better: Driver Packaging Version 8.451-071220a1-057721C-ATI Enabling VBO sadly still means a performance drop of 70% Extra info on this driver/card and the other SL versions: Second Life 1.18.5 (3) Nov 28 2007 13:59:53 (Second Life Release) and No Ripple water Latest version of Windlight gives an example of triangulation in the Upload Texture Preview window, when viewing a texture as a sculpty. Since I have not been uploading sculpty maps recently, I did not notice if this was happing in the other Windlight clients.
The Triangulation is very easy to reproduce by just viewing a sculpty texture as a sculpty in the preview window. Rotate and zoom cause a variety distortions. Windlight 1.19.0.80044 See Picture #11
I find it curious that a supposedly graphics card error would cause these triangles to reflect in Linden water. I have examined the artifacts many times and know that they show up in Render Wireframe, but did not pay much attention to that. These appear to be actual objects although phantom. If were just a graphics glitch, why would Windlight reflect them? Second Life 1.19.0 (80044) Feb 15 2008 16:46:46 (Second Life WindLight) After some more playing around with the ATI 8.1 and 8.2 drivers i found the following: ***UPDATED now inkludes test on 8.2 drivers
The issues mentioned in my previuous comments do NOT seem to be related to if the drivers are coming from ATI or Sapphire but on driver settings (more below) Catlyst 3D Driver settings at DEFAULT values and everything possible maxed out under Graphic prefs. in viewer
Turning on Smooth Vision HD: Anti-Aliasing ("Use application settings" disabled)
Setting Catalyst A.I. to advanced
— CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2884 MHz) I'm having a similar problem. I don't know if it's caused by the same issue or if it's different enough to merit it's own report. I do not have polygons coming from objects inworld, but I get a black triangle section in the upper lefthand corner of my screen in Windlight when I rotate my avatar, zoom in/out, and when using any alternate camera controls. The triangle flickers and slight movements sometimes make it disappear. For instance, if I am rotating to the left, the triangle flickers fast for the duration and sometimes remains on my display when I stop, but a simple small click in the same direction and the triangle will vanish. But one more little movement and it could be back again. So my assumption is at certain (or random) intervals the triangle appears and when making a solid move this produces the flickering effect (moving quickly through the "on/off" intervals). The triangle is never located anywhere else, it is only in the upper lefthand corner, it does not manifest anything in-world, and is always black. Randomly I will be able to make camera movements for several seconds without the triangle appearing. This does no happen at default camera view when walking straight forward the camera is automatically following. If I try to zoom in/out even from default view, the triangle appears. This triangle DOES manifest in snapshots.
Here are some system specs. I hope these help! Hardware Overview: Model Name: MacBook Intel GMA 950: Chipset Model: GMA 950 Picture Dripping AV (above)
This is from my sisters PC, I don't have the specs yet, wil forward later. I am not sure if this is related to the triangles, and this is the first time I have seen an AV affected. Usually stems from nearby prims. Rebake seems to make no difference, I am standing to the left in a black dress. Notice the skin of the AV and note the position of her head, (not just the hair this time folks), no comments please lol. Has anyone else come across this? CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (2660 MHz) Just a note on Catalyst drivers as an AGP user... not trying to turn this into an ATI AGP only thing, but seems relevant to this issue getting fixed, so...
8.2 doesn't work. At all. OpenGL apps die a horrible (horrible!) death. I've heard 8.3 is suppose to include the 8.1 hotfix for AGP users... will see. Yrrek, I have the same card as your sister and I have never seen that kind of "dripping" (It SURE looks ugly...)-I saw she has an even older driver/OpenGL version than I have. Has she tried any newer drivers?
Alyx,
I had her try the VBO toggle and nothing changed, she went to High settings, the screen turned yellow and green, she toggled back to Mid, and it straightened out to normal. The same type of fix I use, toggle the VBO off and back on. My framerate drops by 50% with it off. The funny thing about it, it is just the AV's that are distorted, nothing else. This only happened after the latest update. same problem exist also on the latest rc 1.19.1
system specs You are at 185104.5, 311520.2, 29.9 in Olympia located at sim3454.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.21.189:13004) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3198 MHz) I've been getting it for the past 3 or 4 weeks, only with the Windlight and new viewer. It happens after a certain period of time (ie. not right away. I have to have been logged in for more than 20 minutes), and after I've been panning my camera around. I thought it was related to alpha channels, but I was working in an area without ever looking at an alpha channel and it started up again. VBO has been ON, but I just disabled it and reflections to see if that helps.
Second Life 1.19.1 (0) Mar 5 2008 17:51:19 (Second Life Release Candidate) You are at 281332.4, 234380.2, 37.4 in Tean located at sim3747.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.22.228:13004) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2128 MHz) This issue was resolved as "Needs More Info" during our batch cleanup because it was set as affecting First Look: WindLight. On the Issue Tracker, we've noticed many duplicate issues and issues that lacked actionable info or were already fixed.
WindLight recently "graduated" from a "First Look" technology preview to Release Candidate status – nearing inclusion in the main viewer with your help! So, "First Look: WindLight" does not exist anymore. More info and how to download the RC viewer: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/06/new-release-candidate-viewer-1191-rc0-available/ If you've verified that this issue is still a problem in the newest Release Candidate, here's what to do next: (1) Search the Issue Tracker to make sure it isn't a duplicate of an existing issue we know about. If it is, link it as a duplicate using the "Link this issue..." link on the left. You can learn more about searching by watching this video tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAlXK5hSVMc (2) Reopen the issue and BE SURE to update the "Affects Version/s" to the correct one, most likely ONLY "1.19.1 Release Candidate". However, if this bug affects the main viewer (1.19.0 as of this writing), then DO NOT set it to an RC version. Only set it to 1.19.0 instead. Be as specific with versions as possible – there's generally no need to set multiple versions, as it tends to dilute and confuse where a bug originated. (3) Add any other relevant details that would help us fix it. We can't stress the importance of a "solid repro" enough – a reliable series of steps to make a bug happen reliably. (4) Come and attend our inworld bug triages, where you can meet with Linden Lab employees to look at, verify, and expedite bugs for fixing. More info @ http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage Thank-you for helping us improve Second Life! The multiple duplicates are evidence this issue still exists
I've also heard several reports of people using NVidia cards who now get the same glitch. Maybe someone with an NVidia card can confirm this here on JIRA? (My NVidia GeForce 8600M GS doesn't show it though)
I have had to go back to the standard client Second Life 1.19.0 (5) and am now getting this issue in this as well.
Not anywhere as often but nonetheless. I can no longer run anything that has windlight including the RC. I refuse to turn off VBO and lose 75% of my fps. On a good day on average I run 15fps with VBO enabled. 3.25 fps is unacceptable. I have ordered my 5th video card in 18 months to keep up with SL and refuse to invest anymore money in this because of borked code. This is getting out of hand. When the standard client is release with windlight enabled, well, it is going to be a mess. Harleen, you can add this one as well:
Same problems with an ATI AllInWonder X800GT on Windows XP Pro. Random artifacts and random freezes after I upgraded to the new viewer ...
Second Life 1.19.1 (4) Apr 2 2008 11:59:37 (Second Life Release) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Willamette (1854 MHz) Definitely no fun like this ... I have just installed the update and am having this same problem - started IMMEDIATELY after update installed. TOTALLY unusable ;-(
Second Life 1.19.1 (4) Apr 2 2008 11:59:37 (Second Life Release) You are at 280480.9, 285462.9, 21.4 in Caribbana Harbor located at sim2272.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.17.23:13004) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) I'm using XPPro with an ATI VisionTek Radeon X1300 card and it's just started doing this when I started using the newest release. It also used to do it using one of the older Windlight releases - one of the reasons I stopped using it.
Well I now can use SL again and it is usable....took reading the blog to get some assistance - Below copied from Blog - - many thanks to Ron Crimson!
OK, for those who experience gigantic triangles (seemingly shooting out from the center of the screen) blocking their view, the fix is SIMPLE: Open Preferences (CTRL-P). Go to the Graphics tab, then look at the bottom right for a button called "Hardware Options" and click it to open another small window. Once there, uncheck "Enable OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects," then hit OK and again OK on the big preferences window. @Nam: If you had taken a minute or two to read this JIRA entry, or even checked the title of it, you would have noticed that yes, they only appear if VBO is on-title says it all. To uncheck VBO is NOT a solution. It is ONLY a workaround, and has been discussed at length here. While a workaround is nice if you want to keep using the viewer, what we really want is a solution to the problem, as VBO is supposed to make the viewer faster, not screw up the graphics.
I'm dittoing this here because it occurs to me that, while I have yet to see the vertex objects reappear under a new installation of the 8.3 ATI drivers, the repro for this symptom has not generally been simple or 100% repeatable, at least for me, and what I'm seeing may at the least be an outgrowth of this long-standing issue.
Both 1.19.1(4)RC and 1.19.0(5) Release are (at present) crashing within a few minutes of loading, when both were stable when I was still running 7.11 drivers (or possibly 7.10). More extensive details are provided at Repeating this here since, as touchy as this issue is, my session may simply not have lasted long enough to reproduce the vertex artifacts again. ===================== Update: as of this posting I am crashing within minutes of login, with VBO disabled from the start. Still suspect some kind of driver involvement, as that's the only significant change to my installation that I can recall between a time when 1.19.1(4) was running for up to 12 or 14 hours non-stop (using ATI 7.11 drivers) and the present situation with the 8.3 Catalyst package. Review of the Catalyst menus has revealed no obvious signs of a bad installation (though ATI did want me to register a second time, having apparently ignored the registration I obligingly made online after 8.3 installed). I give up for the night. Too much like work. Nearly instant-crashing (5-10 min. into session) now also seems to affect 1.19.0(5) release viewer as well as the 1.19.1(4) viewer I had installed about a week ago when it was in consideration for final release. Details (taken from an inactive session, off-grid): Second Life 1.19.0 (5) Feb 28 2008 17:18:12 (Second Life Release) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3049 MHz) However, despite 1.19.1(4) and 1.19.0(5) both crashing within minutes of login, I did find that I had a stable-ish session in the latest OnRez viewer. Very slow response (after I turned off VBO) but I was in a busy club environment for most of this session. FWIW, the LL-made viewers and their crashes took place in the same region under similar conditions. Here are the system details from the (ongoing) OnRez session that appear to be at least more stable than anything I've run into since logins were closed around 12am on 5 April 08: OnRez 1.18.5.3 (1) Feb 12 2008 13:05:44 (Second Life OnRez) You are at 272606.1, 256489.4, 22.8 in Romero located at sim988.agni.lindenlab.com (8.4.129.138:13005) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (3049 MHz) Only because it may shed light on the issues in RCs and Release Viewers, I'm attaching pics taken in OnRez viewer, (Hardware and version details same as my updated comment of 6 Apr 08). In this run, I had VBO enabled. When I used Shift-8 to zoom all the way out, I got the resulting pattern of polygons. Attempting to return to a normal view I eventually found myself with a black screen, which persisted even after teleporting to another location.
http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/15845/vertex_inOnRez01_001.png Shows the appearance of the distorted vertices. This may or may not be identical to what has been seen in other viewers but it does bear a striking similarity, and before causing the loss of any view at all, I managed to go in and out of this view very reproducibly using Shift-8 and Shift-9(?or 7?) – the shortcuts for zooming the view out and back in. The other two pics illustrate the situation after losing any view of anything. Note in the second one http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/15845/vertex_inOnRez01_002.png This was taken while in appearance mode, and all sign of the avatar was lost at this point. The last pic was taken in a more standard view (Appearance Mode closed) – note that all hovertext in the scene moved to the center of the view, same point of origin for the distorted polygons, both as seen in this attempt to observe oddities when VBO was enabled, and as seen in every instance I've seen of the ATI vertex bug in standard Linden viewers, First Look and RC viewers that I've mentioned in previous comments. not sure how to remove the first look portion now, but this is effecting me in the main viewer now that windlight has gone to the latest viewer. As this is now a main viewer bug, it's important that it gets addressed instead of just pushed down the road for a later fix. I'll still try and remove the first look portion, since from what I've read, you should only put main viewer bugs with main viewer, and never include a first look or RC in the same bug report.
Edit: After going through trying to diagnose this problem on my end here is what I've done: Initial tearing of prims, easy to trigger by spinning the avatar in place, the prims around him start to tear. I was using omega drivers for my ati x800 xt pe video card. I fixed the tearing by updating to normal catalyst drivers, current version and disabling the catalyst AI. This fixed the tearing issue, but by no means fixed this problem. Now what happens is, there is a pretty bad memory leak of sorts that reduces my framerate down to around 0.2, even on the lowest graphical settings. When I change any of the graphical settings it jumps back up to around 12-15fps, then slowly drops back down to 0.2. Mind you, on the viewer release before this, I could consistently get from 10-20fps on max settings. So there is definately still something wrong with this viewer release. I'd like to mention that apparently my video card was worn out. I got my video card replaced with the same model, same brand, etc (ATI Radeon Mobility x1800), and my vertex glitch problems vanished. For me that was the solution, and it fixed several other problems I was having with my computer as well.
Added a status update and some tips to the top of the issue description
Good News! (Reference Celierra Darling post)
I went sofar as buying a crappy nvidia card, couldn't stand the framerate, pulled it back out, installed the ATI x1550 and went back to driver 7.10. An improvement, almost usable. Too bad I wasted L$16,000 on a new card. But SL has been very, very good, to me! For Sale: e-GeForce 6200. PCI, cheap. I have the same :
Second Life 1.20.0 (84432) Apr 9 2008 03:59:09 (Second Life Release) You are at 278217.2, 289679.8, 29.8 in FurNation Vista located at sim964.agni.lindenlab.com (8.4.129.114:13005) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2671 MHz) This does not occur with VBO off Whoops!
What is Ghost Menjou's comments doing here? NVidia GeForce 7950?? Thought this was an ATI thingy??? ( no offense Ghost Menjou but thanks for mentioning it, really! Well? anyone else with NVidia have this problem??? omg! To make LL aware of the Nvidia issue.
Ghost Menjou , Oh take no offense, thank you for letting us know. This has only been reported with ATI cards and now that windlight is in the mainstream, evidently it is showing up on other systems.
Your post is a blessing, thank you, thank you! Evidently, we that chose to run the beta software are mostly ATI ppl for some reason. I dont recall anyone with nvidia reporting this before. It appears to go deeper than thought. Feel free to post a picture, we would love to see a nivida screwing up too, lol! I already noted on April 3 (see above) that I had heard of people with NVidia cards suddenly encountering the same glitch. (that was some people on the forums, but none went on to JIRA )...Until now it hadn't been confirmed. Unfortunately that means LL will have to work with NVidia on exactly the same bug that they work on with ATI that they said is about to be solved.
I have yet to encounter this again on either my two ATI cards (X600 and Mobility 9700) OR my NVidia 8600M GS. I have been suffering regular freezes and crashes since the 1.19. series rollouts.......
no change in my hardware spec CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2202 MHz) crashes are now more regular after 1.20 rollout The only solution i have found so far is to reduce the video memory settings This would seem to indicate a frame buffer problem....ATI driver or SL server code ??? I strongly doubt this would be caused by the server code.
Its affecting certain Videocards. Let's just hope LL fixes this. Any progress on this or an ETA (Which RC version etc)?
Triangle glitching happens on my laptop (previously ok for 2 years) ATI Mobility Radeon 7900 Have reverted to earlier viewer until LL consider this worthy of a fix.
Note that I'm now also experiencing freezes/silent crashes since post Havok4 RC so that seems to be a sim problem not a viewer issue. That happens irrespective of client version. Adding my card to the list, I have a Nvidia Geforce Go 7900 GTX and get the same problems with triangles appearing out of avatars and the objects, sometimes the land HUD attachments and GUI too.
I've found a little trick that stops it on my computer, though it needs to be re-applied after an update. This has worked for for the last few versions, I thought this work around works so well on my system I should share it. ---------------- CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2163 MHz) Upgrading this to Showstopper as it essentially locks out quite a number of people with this issue, unless they use an old 1.18 viewer.
Off subject?
I am bringing this up because of another issue that just seemed to appear out of nowhere, i.e. total loss of performance when VBO/Shaders were enabled. They used to give me a 50% increase in framerates and all of a sudden were ineffective. I have spent the last 5 days, installing, un-installing, re-installing graphic drivers, and each and every time, I would end up with another problem. I have experienced errors that include, "This operating system does not support your graphics hardware, you must upgrade to the latest operating system", to "Your graphics card is not supported by this driver." Multiple crashes, ( never used to crash), to not even being able to login. I decided to try to purge my entire system of any and all graphic drivers, ATI, Omega, Nvidia, and of course, Not a simple matter, as I soon discovered. I am coming to the conclusion, that a lot of these strange and un-reproducible problems, may be indeed caused by leftover drivers conflicting somehow and a total purge is necessary. Even after the purge using the technique from: I became totally locked out of SL. I then removed Catalyst Control Center, and rolled back the driver to 7.10. Behold, after several reboots, I was actually able to login to SL going through my WAN to the desktop on my home pc. (work PC > Home PC > run SL) It actually worked sluggish of course, but my viewer was showing 14fps even tho it was being run through a remote desktop. hehe. I suggest this: I have not been home to try the system, only remotely, but if I can do it from here, I think I have repaired some of my problems. I will report back of the improvements. re Yrrek comment 09-05-08 ... two instructions from the Nvidia site
"When an NVIDIA display driver update is performed, the new driver will remove the previous drivers during the installation processor. Sometimes it is not successful in removing the older display drivers which can lead to display issues later on as a result of conflicting drivers. As a basic practice, it is recommended that you first uninstall the older display drivers before updating to a newer version. " "Driver Installation Hints
I wonder how many of us have installed our new drivers correctly? I needed to repeat the installation because turning virus protection off meant disconnecting from the net .. and how many of us do that ... ever ! After spending a week cleaning up drivers and trying to pinpoint my problems, it appears that a lot of "Positive" features have been disabled in the RC or have been totally borked.
Enable Basic Shaders - dead (seems to load into RAM not letting the gfx card do it's job) These features were critical to the performance of my system, with them disabled, I could only get 4-7 fps, enabled, 15-30 fps. Both RC 1.20.5 and 1.20.6 crawl to a total stop (0 fps), with these enabled and I can't help suspecting that it was done intentionally, (no VBO = no triangles) problem solved. I just found something that makes this problem even more weird. because I thought another bug happened (the object occlusion bug) i disabled object object occlusion and had allot more "tears" on my screen. However, I also found a new way to make them disappear, I toggled "Fast Alpha" under advanced->rendering. I don't know if fast alpha has anything to do with the tearing, but that actually worked for a miss-click. I hope this helps.
And about the occlusion, I was surprised when turning off occlusion made more appear on screen and disappear when turned off. I'll try and remember to get some snaps if it happens again, and I'll try seeing wire frame and see if that proves interesting. -Liny(TG) Not to long after I post, I was able to take some snaps. I got 4 pictures, 2 in wire frame, and 2 in normal view. It does actually show up in wire frame so that might help. Again I toggled "fast alpha" and they disappeared. Attaching the 4 snapshots as soon as i convert them to jpeg.
-Liny(TG) Note:
Since the RC is useless to me, I have reverted back to the standard client, using 8.4 drivers (ATI). FPS are lousy. As from my earlier tests, I deleted them and re-installed ATI 7.10 drivers (sorry Nvidia ppl) and it doubled my fps, for what it is worth. Again I can enable VBO, Shaders and Hardware Skinning. (for the time being). Oh, BTW at 23 fps again, whereas I was at 4-7 fps, same location. ATM, am trying Nicolaz EC-xf2, happy so far. (/me thinks I am gonna have to give him some lindens) /me wonders what it is like, burring you head in the sand? Maybe I will ask a Linden, they should know. I get the same thing with Nicholaz viewer. Randomly appears at some camera zoom settings. Zooming out and in fixes it for a while, but comes back even if not moving the cam.
Through the normal SL 1.19 download this it what is happening to my screen. Help would be appreciated.
The graphical tears is an issue that spans over several games if you use the Nvidia 7 series.Nvidia will maybe fix this but for the time being I have a solution,contact me in game because it involves underclocking(Memory).
I am seeing this problem too on my ATI based system. One sim that shows the problem quickly is Nantucket. Does appear to be a memory leak. When the memory usage gets too high, the random triangles begin to appear. An out of memory error is not far away.
using nicholaz eyecandy also (yay!)
boy do those screenshots look familiar this happened A LOT with my geforce 5200, but since i've since switched to 6200 and haven't seen it again alt+click/dragging a lot seemed to make this worse or occur more often for me, but i find teleporting (or re-teleporting) fixes things up pretty nicely as a temporary solution have to admit though..i thought it was some beautiful one-time glitch the first time it happened This MIGHT be related to the distortions from zooming, but I doubt it very strongly. Yes the image is similar, but the repro conditions are entirely different. Also, the textures that are distorted under this bug are not merely stretched versions of what happens to be in the view. I'm delinking the Duplicates link and adding a Related to link (though I think even that is a stretch, no pun intended).
Now, I don't know if I'm out of the loop or there's just plain nothing being done about this issue, but the fact of the matter is it's gotten to the point where I'm just not wishing they'd fix it anymore... I've got more impossible dreams to keep looking forward to. Otherwise though, is there any workaround for this? Are there any other clients or modifications or 'anything' that seem to be able to correct this problem? Playing the game at 1 FPS is simply not possible. Playing the game with every single setting set to ZERO AND 1FPS is even more impossible. Going out and buying a new card really isn't an option either, seeing as I only got this one not even a year ago and the thing used to work. Worked fine when Windlight was just getting on its feet.
Now I know people have been pointing out you can enable this and check that and it does fix the problem for about 30 seconds or until you move the camera again, but the only real fix, leaving VBO off, is what makes this whole thing so unbearable. X1300, PCI, has anyone come across something that works? I went and completely uninstalled the card earlier today. When I booted everything back up it sure looked prettier, but wouldn't ya know it, the triangles come back with a vengeance every time. And Yrrek, since you seem to be encountering some sort of strange inverse version of the problem I'm having, I did the same thing because I was no longer able to apply some of those settings on the "main" client and was able to on the RC. 7.10 drivers didn't do anything though. Weird. I'm still keeping an eye on this issue as well. I'm in a similar boat to Moritsune. I have an X1300 PCI. This isn't even a third party card. The latest ATI Catalyst releases, even the hotfixes, are unusable by me. 7.10 stopped working for me for some mysterious reason after I tried an upgrade, and now I'm stuck at 7.7 and suffer significant framerate drops without VBO enabled. It would be nice to know if LL has a least heard anything recently from ATI on this.
Personally, I've given up on ATI properly supporting their PCI cards. I'm stuck on 7.7 when the current is 8.5... that's ten driver releases... ten months worth of them... and I will probably be forced to get a new video card solely because of Second Life, when and if I can afford it. I have no real issues with my other 3D applications. I discovered the hard way, that is pretty much a dead issue as far as LL is concerned. And yes, they are right in that respect. I am sure they still are doing what they can, but the problem is not SL, it is with ATI.
As I found out in the forums, ATI has a tendency to not follow the OpenGL rules and go off on a tangent, disregarding the whole concept of OpenGL. I have no information about ATI but enough to know that most of their cards do not work well in SL. I came up with a simple solution, back to Nvidia. Not a simple task because I have a Dell, and Dell has a tendency to use up old technology and PCI-E is not available to me. Trying to find a decent gfx card to run on PCI is not easy, they are obsolete. One good thing is, if you find one, they tend to be fairly cheap. I have installed a GeForce 6200 PCI and have never run better. I will never go back to ATI. I know LL has been working with ATI, but I don't think ATI has put any priority towards this issue. The US$50 I spent has already paid for itself in much better performance and pretty much flawless client experience. I guess I was lucky then. I can't use the most up to date drivers from ATI because they s*ck (a lot), and I'm on a Dell, too-but with one of the viewer updates a while ago, for me and my ATI X600, the issue just disappeared. (On the other hand, with AA enabled, I now get solid black screenshots in the RC....)
I am also seeing this issue and posting this here since I can't find another thread on Macs for this problem. I got my iMac in Feb 2007 and was able to run SL fine with no problems in both normal viewer and windlight. It wasn't until they started forcing the updates did I start seeing this issue which was sometime this year.
The latest specs: I can't really say whether or not I have the most current drivers because Apple updates drivers with system updates. (Fail on Apple for crippling the user in that way.) This problem ends up showing often for me even if it may be at brief points because most of the time I can resolve by changing camera angle but a lot of the time it just ends up creating more texture triangulation from another spot. Edit: I'm not sure how I would be able to change graphics card settings on a Mac since there isn't any apparent way to do so. So I'm not sure how relevant VBO settings are in my case. CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4 @ 3.2
Memory: 4094 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows Vista 64 - Service Pack 1 (Build 6001) Graphics Card: GeForce 8800 GTX Graphics Driver: ForceWare 175.16 i have every setting on max - even when i disable most it still happens. i actually even thought it was my graphicscard because with a different one it didnt happen (gf6600gt) and sent it in on warrantry. apparently i have to restart the computer to fix this problem. Hey
I have a friend who just started SL today and Is having the same issue. He use an ATI Radon graphics (I dont know the the excact modal) Is there any Lindens that could inform me of the current status in more details and any posaable workarounds thanks With the new RC13, I'm having this problem with triangles exploding out everywhere and then the video drivers crashing in Vista and not recovering, requiring a hard reboot.
Second Life 1.20.13 (91658) Jul 8 2008 16:01:06 (Second Life Release Candidate) You are at 223022.1, 277277.9, 626.2 in Melioria located at sim4116.agni.lindenlab.com (63.210.157.20:13001) CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2310 MHz) Everything seemed fine until I rezzed some sculpties. Then DISASTER! RC-1.20 on windows with radeon
Dammit-it was gone for so long, and now with RC 14, it's back for me. Goes away with VBO disabled, but is a right nuisance.
Second Life 1.20.14 (92115) Jul 14 2008 15:20:29 (Second Life Release Candidate) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) I have this issue as well x1600 ATI Radeon card.
my friend and I refer to this affectionately as "having the triangles" It definitely gets far worse in laggy environments with many avatars. I have this problem, too.
System Notes: CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (2793 MHz) I TURNED OFF THE VBO, BUT THE TRIANGLES AND DISTORTIONS CAME BACK AFTER I PLAYED IN SECOND LIFE A LITTLE LONGER! Oh, wait. Somehow VBO got turned on again at that time. Turning off VBO definitely fixed the problem. So its been since at least november. When is this problem going to be addressed?
I don't have this problem for quite a while and I am using X1600 too. Didn't updated my Catalyst since this spring.
I have the same problem with an ATI Radeon 9600/9700 series card.
As with the others here, turning VBO off fixes the problem. The card Raynor is using is actually an ATI Mobility 9700, and it would be fab if he could give his driver version as well...
)
And Emerald: If they really come back with VBO OFF, that might be a case of an overheating graphics card-so it's a good thing to check whether VBO really is switched off... woop update:
http://www.elevatorcore.com/secondlife/vbo2.avi (17mb)its like there are objects or something that causes it because if you turn away its gone. i have no idea what it is. and of course with VBO enabled. turning VBO does not really help the performance, as soon as i have more than 4 avatars (furry or non furry, does not make a difference) on my screen the FPS drop into the basement. what puzzles me is the fact that it worked fine before and now it doesnt <:c maffi,
A shot in the dark, but what happens when you lower your texture memory slider under hardware options? We had some problems on mac that once we lowered the texture memory used, a number of artifacts cleared up. Tamiza Paine>>
Because there's a workaround. If there's a workaround, they'll either: 1) Not do anything about it. 2) Think of doing something about it, but dont. 3) Act like they're doing something about it. 4) Close the issue and say whatever we can't figure it out. to add to what Zen Linden said... Threre's also a debug setting (Advanced->Debug Settings) called RenderMaxVBOSize which may help with these issues.
If lowering that value solves this problem on your system, could you please post your system configuration information here? Brad, any hints as to what a good setting for this would be? I have next to no idea what units it might refer to.
@Zen Linden.
I have lowered it from 768 to 640 now - the temps seem more stable now. also so far no triangles. but i keep an eye on it. thank you for the help! :3 @Brad Linden as said to Zen, im keeping an eye on it. :3 as for my system informations; i hope that a DxDiag Log will help. update:
RenderMaxVBOSize "24" TextureMemory "640" triangle renders appeared again. Texture memory has no effect.
Turning VBO off slows you down too much. Unclicking Enable OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects slows you down too much.(same as Turning VBO off) Unclicking Basic Shaders slows you down too much. toggling Fast Alpha works temporarily.(Advanced/Rendering/Fast Alpha) Unchecking just Bump Mapping and Shiny does not help with triangles. Adjusting RenderMaxVBOSize does not help nor does adjusting texture memory. The problem seems to be with Fast Alpha textures. 1.19.0.5 does not have Fast Alpha in its Advanced/Rendering. Now if I could build up to 4000 meters with 1.19.0.5 that would be fine, but that version will one day be eliminated so a fix needs to be made in the current version. Been getting this randomly while running the current RC (1.20.? - 08/24/08 ). Doesn't happen very often, but when it does it's usually after TPing somewhere and almost always happens within a few seconds after completing the TP. However it just happened again a lil while ago and THIS happened: http://i35.tinypic.com/2rdciol.png
 (in Plum btw)... And I've never seen it do that particular trick before. And it didn't make me crash until a few minutes later when THIS happened: http://i34.tinypic.com/2dcg2dg.png ...which is what usually happens resulting in a crash.
I don't tweak my graphics settings often, and when I do it's mostly just the draw distance. And it's fine most of the time so this is totally random for me. Closing as "needs more info"
please re-open and add correct version numbers if you are still having this issue. Thank you Sorry, my fiancé STILL has this issue in 1.20, the official release. As have several other people above, I'd say. I 'll change the affected version then.
You all beat me to it on re-opening this.
This is what my comment on it was: This issue is still very much alive for quite a few ATI users. The fact that a lot stopped posting anything here is due more to the issue having been here and users have no real new information as nothing has been done to fix the issue. Just have a look at the official forums and the number of new people that ask why they get weird triangles on their screen. Or ask any person that works with new residents for any length of time. You will see that it is still a Showstopper for quite a few. The current state with this means that those that do have a problem are forced to use the old viewers (pre-windlight). Dang, I'm too slow ....
Alyx is right.:ATI Radeon 9700, driver 8.252.0.0, only way to make it go away is to tutn VBO off. As I have said before, with 1.20.15(92456), adjusting texture memory has no effect.
Turning VBO off slows you down too much. Unclicking Enable OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects slows you down too much.(same as Turning VBO off) Unclicking Basic Shaders slows you down too much. Toggling Fast Alpha works temporarily.(Advanced/Rendering/Fast Alpha) Unchecking just Bump Mapping and Shiny does not help with triangles. Adjusting RenderMaxVBOSize does not help. The problem seems to be with Fast Alpha textures. 1.19.0.5 does not have Fast Alpha in its Advanced/Rendering. Now if I could build up to 4000 meters with 1.19.0.5 that would be fine, but that version will one day be eliminated so a fix needs to be made in the current version. The newest preview viewer 1.21.0(95157) actually shows promise. Everything is reversed with default settings. Everything is way too slow with the default settings but speeds up when you uncheck Basic Shaders and Bump Mapping and Shiny, and even faster when you Disable OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects. 1.21.0(95157) with the reduced settings is still slower than the present current viewer 1.20.15(92456) with default settings, but I have yet to see any triangles. ive tried a lot of things now and still dont know what it really is.
but i the Fast Alpha could be the key - i have it disabled now and so far no problems also another idea, i cant really think that it could be a proble, the cache. tons of suggestions here D:> Have this problem on both my DELL computers. It getting worse lately
You are at 266091.7, 301790.7, 22.8 in Dance Island located at sim4643.agni.lindenlab.com (63.210.159.39:12035) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2392 MHz) Second Life 1.20.15 (92456) Jul 18 2008 10:58:42 (Second Life Release)
CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) it's been a while now that these weird prims and visions flash allover my screen. this is not only a 1.20 issue it has gone back to 1.18 since jan of 08 the earliest i have started noticing this. i have uninstalled and reinstalled the viewer plenty of times, reformatted my pc and looked at all these solutions you have provided which have made it worse. i am barely able to stay on for 10 min now and my screen does the funky flash. if i click on them they either appear to be sculpty, transparent textures, huds, skin and land. unchecking vbo does not help the situation at all has made it unbearable so i switched back. my drivers are all updated. fresh install of windows as well....i have noticed this is an issue now for a few mths which i keep checking back here seeing nothing done so i am now listing this as critical. any temp fix would be greatly appreciated as doing the unchecking of shaders and back or fast alpha makes them worse as well. first image teh green is my zhao hud. the third image where you see the brick and a hole in it again it's a targa image if i apply jpeg this does not happen. supposedly number 6 is a pic of my castle which again is all targa images and sculpty prims on the rail. so as we can see, sculpt, targa textures here & i stress this is an issue with targa images. you can go to empty sim and yes it will happen as terrain is targa you will either see chunks missing and if you are naked yes your skin will do same as they are targa. but if you notice any jpeg image will not distort or become corrupted. something really needs to be worked on here. NOTE: I CANNOT STRESS THIS ISSUE IS ONLY WITH TARGA IMAGES & SCULPT, THEY DO NOT HAPPEN WITH JPEG IMAGES. NONE OF THE ABOVE SUGGESTIONS HELPED. PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS ISSUE AS IT IS GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY AND FOR SOME PEOPLE THIS IS NEAR SIEZURE FOR THEM. UPDATE: I HAVE CHANGED MY TERRAIN TEXTURES ON MY SIM TO JPEG AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW...ONE LESS FLASHING, WARPING TEXTURE. NOW I'M NOT SAYING MY PROBLEM IS RESOLVED CAUSE SADLY THE GRID IS FULL OF TARGA IMAGES. BUT I WILL STRESS THAT JPEG IMAGES DON'T WARP AND DISTORT VS TARGA GIVING US ALL THIS CRAP. Also note: As of right now, the latest stable ATI drivers (Catalyst 8.9) get the "Drivers not compatible" message when trying to start up the viewer.
My info coming as soon downgrade to 8.8 I, too, seem to be having the artifact problem.
Second Life 1.20.16 (97603) Sep 24 2008 18:30:45 (Second Life Release) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3391 MHz) I have the cache maxed, though the cap for some unfortunate reason seems to be 1GB. I'm using a Dell Inspiron Gen1 XPS laptop, which serves me relatively well, considering I'm too poor to get a new computer and given this one's age. The primary pain with it is that I have to wait for Dell to update my video drivers (which, given the antiquity of the machine is going to be NEVER, damn them), and I can't upgrade the Catalyst for the same reason. This didn't used to happen, really. And it does seem to happen after I've been playing for a bit. I just cleared the cache and restarted it, and it seems ok. For now. WOLFEDIT: I lied. I started it, alt+tabbed back here to write this, and when I went back, it was artifact city. Sigh. Windlight Version: Current
ATI Catalyst Version: ATI Catalyst 7.09 - 09-10-07 Second Life 1.20.17 (98669) Oct 5 2008 10:25:42 (Second Life Release) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2421 MHz) When you get the wierd artifacts (which is in about 1 min once i start moving around with no one around of me), open your preference and graphics tab (I didnt test if other tabs and there settings will work) and it doesnt matter what you click, just click a check box and they will disapper. You dont even have to apply, just minimize the preference window and everytime it does it, just open and click the same check box if you want to and there they go again, away they go. This is unexceptable play and i see i will stop using sl until fixed which is sad, becuase this bug has been around since first release of windlight and it doesnt just effect ati. This temp fix works with VBO enabled. Also I would like to note...SL version 19xxx (lastest before windlight) worked perfect and now i had to upgrade and all this came back like when i first tested Windlight long time ago, but now i have to deal with cause new viewer is manditory) Also...i dont see how ati drivers are accused of being the problem when all i have to do is click any check box in the preference under graphics tab and it makes them go away. I've been getting this error since early this year. Currently VBO is turned off and I'm still getting it. It's an intermittant problem, usually fixable by a relog. Though often it takes 5 relogs to reset it.
NVIDIA card user. Second Life 1.20.17 (98669) Oct 5 2008 10:25:42 (Second Life Release) CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+, MMX, 3DNow, ~2.0GHz Getting this problem too, i've disabled VBO as suggested; however, it still is happening...in my case i'm getting object distortions that are radiating from the center of the camera but flash and redraw almost instantly. This flashing affects everything in teh client, including the chat window and buttons...and happens at a variable rate from none to 2-3 times a second.
Second Life 1.20.17 (98669) Oct 5 2008 10:25:42 (Second Life Release) You are at 286472.7, 270325.4, 84.5 in Gonkbrunk located at sim2221.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.16.226:13001) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2394 MHz) Even with all the fixes in the newest version: Second Life 1.21.6 (99587) Oct 14 2008 17:42:25 (Second Life Release) the problem still exists.
Also, the newest version is even slower then version: Second Life 1.20.17 (98669) Oct 5 2008 10:25:42 (Second Life Release) with all settings the same with VBO off. Its not just ATI graphic cards. This bug has existed since first Windlight version, is this bug fix on the lowest priority list? Sazzy, please see this article, Turn off WindLight rendering http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Turn_off_WindLight_rendering
If this is still an issue please post a Ticket with Support for account-specific help http://secondlife.com/support/ Thank you : ) This newest veiwer sucks so bad I want my triangles back.
Is there any way to get the Second Life 1.20.17 (98669) Oct 5 2008 back to install? I am now running so slow I can barely exist in sl - thats with everything turned off. It looks sucky too. Pathetic. Just fix the problem with windlight please. I am running at 1/3 the speed I was just a month ago, and it is not on my end. wow Tamiza that is pretty helpful
also way to make yourself look like a <less smarter> person. @issue its probably not a fix for everyone - but try to place your computer so, that it gets more cool air. This is a problem a WHOLE YEAR long now and all its getting is... WORSE.
LL, at its side is... increasing tier by 67% for open space sims. GREAT JOB LINDEN LABS! A SOLUTION FOR THE GLITCHES, WILLYA? :-// CAF Downgraded priority (NB the following):
Showstopper Personally Vivienne I would have thought that having my screen break up into a soup of pixel distortions so bad I can't actually make out things on my screen as pretty much "severe". Since this has been sitting here untouched for almost a year now I'd put it into the Showstopper category, or at bare minimum Critical. And why do you seem to be implying this is not a confirmed issue? Do you think the attached screenshots have been photoshopped or something? Thanks for the patronising tone.
Yeah Vivienne, take your stupid crappy comments else where, we dont need your advice cause you obvisouly dont have the problem.
The only abuse i see here is you typing on your little keyboard in the wrong forum. How much more confirmed do you need? The attitude in your comment on the down grade is not just uncalled for but the reason so many SL users are getting bad attitudes. With current state of SL one should really use some caution when speaking in public.
I'm turning off vbos by default on the original X series and X1000 series of ATI cards in one of the coming RC and may look at the later lines as well in the future. This is coming after VBO audits by our lead developers and inconsistent reproducing of the bug within the lab. We'll monitor viewer performance with the cards in question and tweak the cards' recommended settings to help.
WorkingOnIt Linden or any Linden, i was wondering if you had anymore information on this problem or a fix other then turning off VBO?
I cant believe that you cant replicate this problem. Since you cant, why dont you tell use what versions of drivers, catalyse versions, and with what ati cards and all the settings so we all can get ours to run perfect like you say yours is that wont reproduce the probem we are all having. Maybe a spreadsheet of what works with what drivers and what settings on what cards that seem to run perfect that you cant get to replicate on. We want our machines running like your test machines that dont have any problems using our specific cards. If ANY new news about this please lets know. Thank You Fact is turning off VBO DOES NOT HELP as it is stated in MANY comments! So do not use this topic as a focus for the glitches and triangles problems.
I am back here after ONE year and again now, after 2 MORE months. Still, YOUR software is BAD developed and YOU seem to NOT have a solution for that. These are the facts. Stop walking in circles and fix your software, Lindens! :-// CAF BTW: tier increase is going well, isnt it? Since this issue has existed for over a year, seems to affect a significant number of residents, and can severely impact one's experience inworld, I'm upgrading this issue to Critical.
Disabling VBO does NOT fix this issue for me.
I have Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTX with a total memory of aprox 1983MB (That's of course inlcuding the gig it borrows from my system memory) is anything ever going to be done...this has gone from bad to worse being unable to use the client at all. i can't sit at my screen for more than a few seconds now everything is just flashing. no my card isn't bad, no my system is up to date, yes i see nothing but lindens saying their system is fine what a miracle since all of us are out of luck huh? get working on this will you. can't run a business if we can't sit at our bloody screen. this isn't vbo crap, this isn't texture memory crap either, no it's not fixing settings low or high this is an issue damnit....one that needs fixing it's going near 2 years. 2 YEARS PEOPLE FROM BAD TO WORSE....GET OFF THE ISSUES THAT AREN'T IMPORTANT AND GET WORKING ON THE ISSUES THAT ARE ACTUALLY NEEDING A FIX.
************************************************* Second Life 1.21.6 (99587) Oct 14 2008 17:42:25 (Second Life Release) You are at 256613.5, 297307.3, 23.8 in Tabuks Ford located at sim5469.agni.lindenlab.com (8.2.34.25:13001) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.16.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7c zlib/1.2.3 Back again, after more than a year.
As many many people have commented, the problem described happens for many reasons. I my case, after all, it seems to have been due to a growing malfunction of graphics board memory chips. At the end i couldnt use the client anymore, like some here. Tip came from this: I ve changed board (Power Color ATI X1950 Pro) for a new one (ASUS, Nvidia EN9500GT) and all is ok now. No matter what, we could use better responses from LL. This could have spared me months of research. Good luck all (:)s CAF Same issue with latest official 1.22.11.0 and HD4870 / Catalyst 9.3. Artifacts all over.
CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2800 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.16.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7c zlib/1.2.3 Some new info (maybe)
I now have this issue. It was working fine with ATI's 9.2 drivers, and fails with the new 9.3 drivers. No change to the SL Client. Turning off VBO works as a workaround, but the performance does indeed suffer. The issue seems to occur with objects that use sculpties. Most everything else seems to render OK, but are overlaid with these triangles. Once it starts, it seems like sculpties and even land Since the change in 9.2 to 93. was a change in handling compressed vs uncompressed textures, and the types of objects that are creating these triangles are based on texture-mapping to primitives, I'd look at something in the way SL sends down the textures to the driver. ATI probably has not fully fixed these issues on their end yet. I have heard rumors of additional OpenGL fixes in a forthcoming 9.4 release - anyone have additional information? CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2199 MHz) I'm seeing this as well with the 9.3 catalyst driver and 1.22.11 client. triangles all over the place. Turning off VBO fixes it.
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7500 @ 2.20GHz Upgraded to Catalyst 9.4 and immediately had the "triangle" problem. Went back to 8.12 to fix it.
Up to then never had it with Catalyst 8.12 up to 9.2. Have other issues with Catalyst 9.x drivers and SL (see VWR-12139) so still running 8.12 here. Its very disturbing that a problem reported well over a year ago in November 2007 can just re-appear again in a new driver revision, guess it never got solved at all ! System ... Since updating to the Catalyst V9.4 drivers the other day I've encounted this problem as well, though unlike the last couple of commenters I was working fine with V9.3 and the current SL client. I found that as soon as I turned off the VBO the graphical errors vanished straight away, no restart needed.
— Second Life 1.22.11 (113941) Mar 6 2009 12:50:02 (Second Life Release) You are at 286511.7, 266268.3, 429.1 in Idunn located at sim3550.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.22.31:13002) CPU: AMD Phenom X4 (2600 MHz) uh im seriously getting sick of this. realy. yesterday i posted here about this problem and now i find this tread here. gawd. it started november 2007, right? its april 2009 now. i got a business to run, i needa build. everytime i build its just a big pain and doing my head in.
please fix this soon https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12842 Now for something to completely throw this issue into the blender for rethinking. I just experienced the problem while having VBO off. I supose that now the common thought of turning VBO off fixes it, is now not true. I am uploading a snapshot of what I saw, complete with the hardware options showing VBO as off.
I have VBO off as well, with an NVIDIA card, and I have the problem. Should we modify the summary ?
I do not see the distortion in the picture uploaded with VBO off
@Harleen, look on the side of the picture, the grey bar. I know it isn't much of a snapshot, but I couldn't manage to grab a better snapshot. If it happens again, I will try again to grab a snapshot that shows it in more detail (bigger affected area). The only problem is, as i was trying to grab screen shots of it, SL crashed on me (probably because of this problem). I also don't think uploading a picture with VBO turned on would provide any comparison. I have tried turning it on for better performance, of that, gained none, instead, lost FPS, and got a screenfull of what the other pictures show.
CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Northwood (2405 MHz) The flashing problem is clearly a memory leak problem.
There are 2 reproducible instances that trigger the flashing triangles:
When that happens, the only way to clear it is to reboot the computer. BUT, in the reboot process, it also crashes the entire operating system. So this is clearly a memory leak problem that bleeds into the other protected memory space. OK, actually, on my side, VBO was on. Turning it off got rid of the spikes, however, I just did have the flashing problem.
The display started flashing until I decided to move, and when I moved, I noticed that the wavy water as well as some buildings stopped being displayed. Running Linux here, so I didn't have to reboot (°ω°)b Triangles with VBO enabled.
CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (2204 MHz) 9.4 ATI drivers === Second Life 1.22.11 (113976) Mar 6 2009 16:05:03 (Second Life Release Candidate) You are at 264531.4, 238095.3, 86.4 in Yoonseul located at sim4148.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.53.52:12035) After weeks of testing, I just can't get rid of this kind of bug. VBO off and there are flashing triangle rendering glitches, VBO on and there are spikes protruding out of objects. My hardware is supported.
I suggest we change the title of this bug to catch a Linden eye. WindLight is kind of an old story... From what I've read, Catalyst 9.5 drivers are expected to be released by May 13th. I hope these solve the problems.....
I think Yukinoroh has a good point, this is an old issue that has outgrown its original title. It's about time the Lindens noticed it and put an R&D team together to work with the graphics chip designers to solve this one once and for all. As I said on
This issue is caused by bad VRAM (video memory). The only way to fix this is to replace your video card. If your video card uses TurboCache or HyperMemory then the issue may be with your system RAM instead. Try disabling TurboCache/HyperMemory first if you know how, and see if the issue goes away before you try replacing your video card. If disabling it makes the issue go away you should try doing a memory test (http://www.memtest.org/ It's easy to blame other people's hardware, but I don't think there would have that many people with broken hardware. Not mentioning the fact that the number of comments and votes here have boosted since April.
Updated tiltle. From the recent comments, now affects all recent viewers, all video cards, no matter if VBO is no or off.
I agree with Yukinoroh. Being in RL an electronics engineer and designer for almost 30 years I am certain that in my case these problems are not due to faulty VRAM on my graphics card.
In a few days ATI Catalyst 9.5 drivers should be out which apparently will have full OpenGL 3.1 support, it'll be interesting to see what happens then. Please report what you find here, I hope the feedback is good, it should certainly prove interesting. Two days ago I upgraded my Nvidia drivers, from 173.14.05 to 180.51, and the rendering glitches are much more frequent now. Flashing when VBO is off, not flashing when VBO is on, but anyhow very frequent. I'm going to try to downgrade and see what it does.
Okay, back to Nvidia driver 173.14.05, and the spikes and flashes have returned back to how they were before I try the 180.51 driver, is to say once in a while. 180.51 was causing them to happen dozens of times per day. So definately not a hardware issue.
A couple of weeks ago, ATI sent us some of their internal capturing software and I was able to capture the triangle glitch bug on my 4850 and send it to them. They are on it, and believe it to be due to some optimizations they made and are working on it. I'll let you all know more when I know more and when they release a fix or give us a workaround.
ATI hardware with vbo on is where I've seen these problems occur. As far as other platforms such as nvidia, I am unable to repro the issue on any nvidia hardware yet, but if I do, I'll do what I can. Any issues where vbos are off, or on non-ati hardware are likely a different bug or hardware problems. It would really help if this jira was for the ati vbo bug and we had separate bugs for nvidia triangle glitches and triangle glitches when vbos are off as I'm pretty sure these are separate issues. Thanks for the update Zen, fingers crossed that ATI will be able to get it sorted.
Version 9.5 of the Catalyst drivers are still giving the VBO problem on my system. Wierdly though, now the atmosphere shaders are causing all prims to go transparent and flicker. O.o I'll create a seperate issue for that since it seems to be seperate from the VBO issue, just thought I'd mention it. Thanks for your efforts and the information Zen, it is very much appreciated
Yes, dividing this issue now wil be a good idea, it'll clarify the situation and help to get it solved. Personally, I couldnt wait for one or two more revisions (in other words one-two months longer) for a solution and be able to participate in Second Life without these seriously limiting issues. I solved my problem by scrapping the Radeon 4870, going back to Nvidia and fitting a GTX260 series card. No log-in issues, triangles or ludicrously slow frame rates when moving around any more. Despite this, I hope this bug gets fixed soon and many others are not in a position to adopt my solution. Second Life 1.23.3 (122255) May 30 2009 13:13:41 (Second Life Release Candidate)
CPU: AMD X2 4800+ (2.4Ghz) Viewer crashes instantly when VBO is enabled. When VBO actually worked, it gave incredibly poor performance, especially when rotating the camera. I think I may have found what causes the problem, but I don't know anything as to how to fix it. The problem seems to appear whenever SL redraws the WL skydome. forcing OpenGL to reload fixes the problem until about 30 seconds later when SL redraws it again. The source file that handles the redraw of the skydome is "llvowlsky.cpp". I don't know if this information will help those that are trying to fix this problem or not, but I just wanted to share what I found.
Edit: Spell check is your friend. Artificacts using the EAH4890 videocard with latest drivers (Catalyst 9.5)
Just upgraded to Catalyst 9.6. While there's a little performance boost without VBO (like, 2FPS), the VBO issue is still there. Turning it on causes the glitches and the FPS drop. 9.6 supposedly added a lot of OpenGL support, too.
AMD Phenom X3 2.1GHZ Updated to CCC 9.6 and Second Life 1.23.4 (123908).
Ticking VBO no longer causes me to crash, but it still does not have any performance benefit (and in fact, makes it worse). However, the newest SL viewer release seems to have given me a 25-50% performance gain as I'm actually hitting 20-24 FPS in FurNation Hell for once. Problem persists with Catalyst 9.6 drivers, VBO enabled. When VBO is disabled everything is normal. Affects the current mainstream release (1.23.4).
Video of the problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NNfb2_2ANg Second Life 1.23.4 (123908) Jun 11 2009 15:16:56 (Second Life Release) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2200 MHz) I had a Nvidia 8800 GTS first and did not have this issue and my frames per second were ok.
Now I "upgraded" to a ATI 4890 and I have the artifact issue unless I turn off VBO. Seems like SL makes my card look like garbage, please fix this issue, it has been open since 2007 !! Following Phantom Ninetails and Zen Linden comments, and after seeing that as time was passing, the number of spikes and flashing green spots kept increasing, so much that Second Life would just crash after a few seconds, and that Firefox was starting to do the same, complete with few tiny red spots in my window manager, I did suspect my nvidia card to have come to an end... and was right. I'm now on a new nvidia card and problems have vanished.
Another friend in SL with a nvidia card is being hit by the same problem - I suppose that with summer the old cards (7, 8 series) whose VRAM is done overheat more easily... If anyone else notice the same, that the problems keep increasing while your drivers and client versions did not change, suspect a hardware failure; refer to Phantom Ninetails' comment. I was just a pondering the above comment and thought I'd post with some of my own experiences since I last comments, ages ago. [ http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3258#comment_58408_header_stevenSDF%20Fisher
]
I haven't had this problem in ages, a part from time to time when a reboot would solve it, in the latest RCs I've hardly seen this problem at all. In the most recent I have (1.23.4 (123523)) I see it once in a when I first login and then after moving around in world it disappears. That's what I see with ma' nVidia stuffs anyways. Had to revert to CCC 9.5 since 9.6 keeps causing the VPU Recovery to kick in at least once a day with SL running.
I'm also getting this.
Current SL viewer 1.23.4 (123908) but also other versions going back a while Intel E8400 Curiously I fixed it in XP Pro by doing a system rollback so maybe there's a Windows update or something that introduces a new version of something. Win7 was immediately affected. Curiously it seems much smoother and faster since I disabled VBO, like it was when I first bought this machine almost a year ago. SL used to be stable for me, but it's been pretty horrible lately. I'm talking crashes every few hours, randomly. Sometimes, it crashes without even triggering the bug reporter.
These random crashes come with Snowglobe, the RC, and the official version. It seems like these problems started when the translucent avatar bug showed up. Intel Core i7 920 My computer is perfectly stable in all other games, but SL is unstable. It's making things difficult when I built and socialize. VBO has been broken since catalyst 9.2 for me as well. Please fix this. I'm tired of rendering issues CPU: Intel Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon (0.25 micron process) with external L2 cache (2833 MHz) Intel 2 Quad Core 9550 2.83 Ghz
Memory: 3327 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (Build 2600) Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.62-090520m1-081744C-ATI OpenGL Version: 2.1.8673 libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 Enabling VBO to try new 1.23 features results in horrible triangle artifacts. Should we have to wait for ATI fixing drivers? Thanks for suggestions crew!! I am also seeing this. I am using an XFX ATI Radeon HD 4890 with Catalyst 9.6 (drivers version 8.62). I suspect this is indeed an issue with the VBO implementation from ATI and based on the last few posts it appears to be in the Catalyst 9.6 release of the drivers. This is a "me too" comment but I thought it would be useful to report that I am seeing the behavior on Linux since the previous posts have only been reports from Windows.
— libcurl Version: libcurl/7.16.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7c zlib/1.2.3.3 c-ares/1.4.0 9.7 now causes my viewer and entire system to lock up after only having the viewer running for a few minutes. I've had to revert to 9.5 again to fix these issues.
======== CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2412 MHz) Thanks for the update on the 9.7 release Sahkolihaa Contepomi. Is there any indication that ATI has accepted this as a bug in the drivers?
Man... i can't catch a break. For months i troubleshooted this problem.. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10112
.... after wiping my harddrive and reinstalling the operating system, it still crashed. In desperation, i said the hell with it, i'll just buy a new computer.... well i've got a new computer now, but now the grapics are all triangulated....
ATI Radeon HD 4350 512MB I have upgraded to the Catalyst 9.7 drivers on Linux (as distributed by Debian fglrx packages) and switched to the 64-bit Open Metaverse Viewer 1.23.4. I am now able to run with VBO enabled and there are no visual glitches. The hardware is an "XFX ATI Radeon HD 4890 1GB."
Catalyst 9.8 has no fix for VBO and causes the viewer to lock up after only a few minutes, even with VBO off.. Switched back to 9.5...again.
This is beyond ridiculous - 9.8 is supposed to have OpenGL 3.1 support! well i had it on the 7900 Gt from nvidia back a bit and now i changed to ATI and with the 9.8 catalyst it has massive this error if vbo is on it takes a second until it has triangles all over the screen
below are the sl pc system details GreenLife Emerald Viewer 1.23.4 (673) Aug 25 2009 04:35:47 (GreenLife Emerald Viewer) Built with MSVC version 1400 CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (2700 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 Mel Setsuko: Please do not post bug reports regarding GreenLife Emerald viewer or any other third party viewer to JIRA. Linden Lab can only respond to bug reports for viewers that we distribute ourselves. Could please confirm that you still see the same behavior in our official Second Life 1.23.4.123908 viewer?
Brad...no offence but do you see this part here
Rendering glitches: triangle glitches, vertex tears, etc. on some ATI cards with VBO on that we post and post and post tell me what is being done? when will something be fixed? i got tired of posting on this i am recieving the emails and i only shake my head wondering why people are wasting time still repeating the same bloody issues it's been for 2 years. i mean really 2 yrs this is an issue and all we get are differnt viewers but nothing to fix this stupid problem that is unbearable for some who can't even log in. we know it's an issue on the regular viewer doesn't matter if he posted emerald or not this is something ignored to long now and really disturbing that nothing is being done. I've given up on this. Bought a Zotac GeForce 9800GT Eco/Synergy Edition graphics card that has 1GB VRAM on it.
It works perfectly fine. I can keep the VBO on and I have a fantastic frame rate with no crashes or graphics corruption. I am appalled at you, Linden Lab. So many people, mostly gamers, have bought ATI cards due to their incredible speed in DirectX games yet when they run SL, something that is far lower in the graphics quality area, runs at a very poor frame rate. I updated yesterday with new ATI drivers, this problem seems to be solved now, however the viewer keeps crashing even on lowest settings. Not just 1 viewer, but all official viewers from 1.21 to 1.23 and snowglobe
Well sorry for late response Brad ^^
Ok tested it now with different viewers greenlife emerald, snowglobe, 1.23.4.123908 and the RC of LL. Greenlife as reported has the error but at least the officials have fixed it now maybe i will use time to time the official if i dont build than its pretty nice i think I recently updated my drivers to Catalyst 9.9 and so far I can run the most up-to-date RC with VBO on and no framerate issues. That is, my frame rate is still unusually low, but VBO doesn't knock it down to single-digits any more.
My specs, again: Vista 32 Mel: Thanks for getting back. That's interesting that snowglobe and the official 1.23 have different behavior, they should have the same rendering code as far as I'm aware.
Emerson and Youri: The word from ATI is that the Catalyst 9.9 drivers have a fix specifically intended to solve these VBO related triangle glitches. I'm glad to hear it's been helping. Youri: I've looked at your crash reports and they appear to be unrelated to this, have you filed another JIRA for them? Brad: yes i have, currently still no good answer that solves the problem. I did however mention a lot of time that the OpenGL vertex buffer needs to be turned OFF. This solves the biggest problems it seems. So, I'm guessing it's something in that direction that causes it.
EDIT: I mean the option 'Enable OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects", just to be clear on that well after getting fed up so much where i wanted to throw the pc out of the window i did one last thing that finally seemed to have worked. i uninstalled my vid card and put the very very first driver on no updates nothing and voila...no more glitch and i even have my login screen back. hopefully it stays that way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my specs: Second Life 1.23.4 (123908) Jun 11 2009 15:16:56 (Second Life Release) Built with MSVC version 1400 You are at 172698.5, 253826.4, 4010.2 in Honiahaka located at sim1043.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.13.193:12035) CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3192 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 there is a huge difference of my login screen now that i have the very first driver on and i don't have any plans on updating.
this is why i was fedup, i could no longer login...let alone chat to anyone
What's a VBO? I don't know how to figure out if I have it on or off. I have ATI. I have this problem also, but it's real bad where I can barely go anywhere.
So I can't even find where this is in my ATI CCC, all I found was a OpenGL Triple Buffering which was unchecked. But still having the problem. Since this has been going on for almost two years and still no solution, does that mean that the one's that have this problem are suppose to just quit SL?
Lulu: VBO can be found in Second Life under Graphics -> Advanced. Uncheck it if it's giving you a problem.
The last set of ATI drivers sort-of fixed VBO for me (I can use it and it doesn't murder my framerate completely). I'm hoping that Linden Labs is planning a fix for this with the next RC and between that and the ATI drivers that all will be well, but...I'm not holding my breath. I have an ATI HD 4000 series video card in my laptop. I checked with the ATI driver locator and there is nothing available. What should I do now? My desktop has a Geforce Card which is doing the same thing but ot is temporarily out of service due to an ethernet card needing to be replaced. I will check the drivers for that as soon as it is back up. As for now, what to do about my laptop drivers if that is the problem here? Have not had this computer 6 months yet.
Think the safest bed in your case, is to go back to the store where you boughed it and let them solve it. You should have 1 year of warranty at least, and in depending in what country you are, you could have more time even. Check the bill you got with that laptop, it should give you info like that. in the meanwhile you should try to update EVERYTHING you can, please do ot flash your bios unless you know what you're doing! BIOS flashing has to be very precise, if not, it siriously can destroy your motherboard....
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Bug
Reopened
Critical
Rendering glitches: triangle glitches, vertex tears, etc. on some ATI cards with VBO on
cause these rendering glitches. It impossible to get rid of without a quit and restart of the client.