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Mercia Mcmahon added a comment - 06/Oct/07 12:47 PM
Changed the title to reflect the description, Becky, did I get it the right way round?
I can confirm the repo.
1. Stopped my alt seeing my online status There is an option in preferences that might override the per-friend privacy setting. The preferences option lets EVERYONE see your online status. If you've let everyone see your online status, then it would seem to me that all of your friends should be able to (because they're part of "everyone"). Please check this setting for us and repeat this reproduction with it off.
My "Make Online status visible to friends online" is checked, this isnt an issue dealing with groups, this is an issue dealing with friends online.
Still broken, and more information has been provided
"Make Online status visible to friends online" has nothing to do with groups, it is whether everyone can see your online status on your profile, if unchecked friends that cannot see your online status can still check your profile and determine it just like everyone else.
The confusion with this bug seems to be that when you disallow a friend from seeing your status in the friends box, you do go offline to that friend and you are no longer bold in thier box, which is as it should be. It is only upon relog that you can again see your friend's status. this feature is broken..... it does NOT work ....it was working before the last update and happened about the same time as the web friends online feature broke.......whenever i uncheck "can see my online status" in my friends box, it has no affect, everyone sees me and continues to act like i am online..i have even asked them do i show online and the answer is yes ... i have had people IM me as soon as i logg in and their name is unchecked on the friends list....if they can relogg and see me the the feature is still broken...i'm not sure what the confusion is
 ..this has nothing to do with the online staus in preferences..it is in the friends box in contacts... I too am having a problem with this. The friends visibility toggle for "can see my online status" doesn't appear to be functioning at all now in the viewer. It appears to have no effect at all as to whether the visibility toggle is checked or unchecked – everyone on your friends list appears to always be able to see you as being online no matter how you have the visibility indicator set individually for each friend. This is causing for alot of awkard social moments and angry friends feeling shunned when privacy is wanted. Please fix.
I cannot reproduce this to the same extent as Balthazar. If you disallow a friend from seeing your status while they are online, you immediately go offline to them (not that there are not other ways to still see their online status, but the friends list correctly reports the status as offline). But if they relog your status then shows online in their friend's list, even though they should see you as offline.
Repro:
Log in as your main avatar. Make sure your alt avatar is friends with your main, and that both can see each other online in the list check boxes. Log in your alt using -multiple on the command line. Check to make sure that both avatars can see eachother listed as online in friends. Using the main avatar, deselect that your alt can see you online. Switch back to the alt avatar. Main is still listed as being online. Log off main. Switch to alt; main is still listed as being online, even though main is actually completely logged out. This doesn't ALWAYS happen with me, but I've noticed it and have been sort of mystified. Oryx's repro does not happen for me, I am logged on two different PCs with my main and alt, as soon as I disallow my alt from seeing my online status, I go offline to my alt, even get the blue box in the lower right. I do not show online to my alt until I relog with the alt.
Is this confirmed by Aric as a reproducible bug?
I agree with Harleen's description. When a friend logs in they will see your online status even if you have them explicitly blocked from seeing your online status on your Contacts List (this has nothing to do with the setting in the general preferences). Oddly, the reverse does not seem to be the case. Friends already in world when you log in seem to honour the online status settings. Toggling the status is also honoured. Another confirmation: I have just reproduced this. If you have a friend set to NOT see your online status, and you are logged in when they log in, they will see your online status. As reported above, if you toggle this checkbox the other friend will see you drop offline and then not see you though you still are online.
Sorry for the additional comment: I wanted to confirm this has been going on, I now realize, with every viewer I've used in the last month or more. First Look Windlight, RC 1.18.4.1 and the current release 1.18.4.3. Maybe others, as well.
I confirm this bug is well reproducible.
Please, don't solve it ! Indeed, I need to know whose of my friends is really online! I want to know if i dont have to disturb them, but also like to know if they are really there. Please, don't solve it ! The privacy controls are there precisely to prevent specific people on the friends list from knowing information the user does not want them to know. Anyone can put themselves into busy mode when they don't want to be disturbed by people they've allowed to see their online status. For finer-grained control, the invisibility option being discussed here is the only way we have to reduce the odds of being disturbed when busy mode is not practical. Clearly that level of control is needed, or this ticket would not be here.
 "How long does it take Linden Lab to replace a broken light socket? About six months. Because there are currently plans to completely renew the electricity in the house anyway, which you will understand takes some time, thank you for your patience."
This ticket has been open for almost two months without even an update from the Linden it's assigned to, so it doesn't feel like it's in any serious danger of being fixed soon. There's a nice summation of the Linden Lab approach to bug fixing here: http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/2007/11/long-road-behind-long-road-ahead.html Leanne, thank you for the thoughtful reminder. This issue is currently assigned to an internal developer and is being worked on. Though it's assigned to me, I'm not the developer doing the work, I'm just minding the issue. Issues are frequently worked on according to priority. Issues with priority of Normal (such as this one) don't take priority over Critical or Major issues and, as such, sometimes appear to languish. I'm sorry.
Aric, thank You for stopping by to give an update. Priorities are, of course, in the eye of the beholder, which is why I posted the link as food for thought. However, in the absence of any tangible progress, updates are Always Welcome.
Bearing in mind that I have no idea how the priority is arrived at, I've upped it to critical for you - does that help!? Leanne, we have internal guidelines about priority. Critical translates to loss of data or user can't proceed through a functional path because the issue blocks. While I understand the importance you place on this problem, I don't see data loss here. Privacy loss, possibly. Internal priorities often get set as part of the internal dialog about bugs - during our internal triage process, we will, on occasion, shift priority up or down. This issue has been through the triage process and we've left it assigned major. I will try to bring this issue back up at our next triage with an eye toward raising internal visibility. I will also chat with the developer to see where it stands in queue.
I did find a bit odd that I seem to be able to arbitrarily change the priority of a Jira entry.
Aric, thank you again; an update and what sounds like progress. I don't think you can over-estimate the value of good feedback. As an aside, I'd also like to apologise to the 'Watchers' for turning this into a 'chat' thread but sometimes you just want to poke the sleeping giant. Happy New Year!
Is it possible to have an update please? On the 28th November 2007, Aric Linden reassured us: "I will try to bring this issue back up at our next triage with an eye toward raising internal visibility. I will also chat with the developer to see where it stands in queue." Was this issue raised at a subsequent triage meeting? Did you talk to the developer who is 'holding' this bug? This remains an obvious bug in a previously working feature. Jon Linden recently posted a blog entry to 'advertise' this very feature: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/12/20/knowledge-base-article-of-the-week-getting-some-me-you-time/ https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=3996 "Hide your online and map status from Friends By default, friends – generally other Residents who know you – are able to see you online, even if the Make my online status visible in Search checkbox in the Preferences window isn't selected. You can control your online visibility on a per-friend basis in the Friends subtab of the Communicate window's Contacts tab. Select a Resident's name from the list and deselect the Can see my online status checkbox to hide your online status from that Resident." I hope you can see the irony of a blog piece that fails to recognise the dysfunction of the very thing it is trying to promote. This issue gets really annoying when people say things like "if you're not going to talk to me, why don't you just defriend me?"
There is no privacy in SL. It's ridiculous to have to log out and use another chat program to do SL related work. Even MSN added an invisibility option. Please fix before the year's out. Hi, and thanks for your continued interest in this issue – Jake Linden is looking at this related to avatar presence problems (including online/offline status), and we NEED and would appreciate a CLEAR reproduction of this bug, AND what the root problem is here.
The original repro didn't work for me. Because:
I repeated this several times. So, if someone(s) can please help us make more sense of this, it'll help us a lot – and we do want to help you! Thanks. I believe the key is logging off and back on.
Yes, now have Torley Linden log off and then log back on. If it's working the way it does for me, Torley Tester will now appear online to Torley Linden. I have tested and reproduced this in this manner consistently with my own alt.
The problem definitely still exists. It is completely reproducible. I just rechecked it. They key to triggering this condition is:
Once Torley Tester tries to hide from Torley Linden by unchecking Torley Lindens "Can see my online status" box in Torley Tester's friends list, if Torley Linden logs on to SL while Torley Tester is online, he will see Torley Tester online in his friends list. AND Torley Tester will remain showing online in Torley Linden's friends list even if Torley Tester logs off SL completely. Torley Linden would have to exit SL and re-log on with Torley Tester offline for Torley Tester to not show up as online in Torley Linden's friends list. It acts as if SL doesn't know that Torley Tester is showing online in Torley Linden's friends list and so does turn it off when Torley Tester goes offline. I can't emphasize enough how much social grief this causes. Not only do people think you are ignoring them, but they can immediately tell that you are hiding from them. If "friend" does not show as online on the web and when you log on, BINGO, they show up as online in your friends list, you know they have unchecked the "Can see my online status" box for you in their friends list. Not the most popular social situation. I can online imagine how many fights and breakups this has caused over the last three months this has been broken. Folks, I am truly confused.
So far I have found a problem with calling cards in the inventory that are not picking up the online status of people who are not in friends list, which is a problem but not one I am going to worry about too much right now (to fix it would require sim / client surgery that's fairly involved - adding new messages etc) since it's not indicating you are online when it shouldn't - just that you aren't online when it should. Now, I've tried to repro this problem a lot and can't seem to get a handle on it. I tried crissi's steps above and it works as designed? This is what I've tried so far -
Ok, thats what it's supposed to do. Then I tried this.
Again, doing what it's supposed to? So, what am I doing wrong here? Oh, and are the two accounts on the same sim when this is occuring?
It doesnt matter if Jake logs off or not, it is JakeTest that needs to log out and log back in.
Becky, can you give me step by step repro steps, as I outlined in my example?
There isn't enough info there to know when Jaketest is supposed to log out. Thanks Jake
Thanks Becky.,
Yeah, it's as I thought. I cannot repro this on my tip of code windows simulator right now. I'm going to try it on tip of code on a station (one of our linux test boxes here at LL) using tip code, and if I can't repro it there, I'm going to mark it closed since I think it's already been fixed by some other change we've already made. it has not been fixed sir, just yesterday i had someone IM me that logged into game after i did, i asked them specifially did i show online to them and they said yes ...i had them unticked in other words i should have been invisible to them...please dont give up on this problem its been 4 months
Jake, PLEASE DON'T CLOSE THIS. It as broken as ever. I just spent an hour repeating it systematically under various conditions with two avatars. It really is not hard to replicate at all. Becky's last comment added to the confusion because she reversed the Avs names at the end of her comment and got it backward, Let me try to explain this one more time as clearly and simply as possible.
1. Two Avs, A and B are friends. Each is in the other's Friends list and each has the box next to their friends name that says "Can see my online status" checked. All is fine. If A is online and B comes online, B sees A online in B's Friends list when B logs in. The reverse also is also true. Everything is working fine as it is supposed to. 2. Now the problem begins. "A" decides he wants to be online without B knowing, so A unchecks the "Can see my online status" for B in his Friends list and goes offline (or A can just stay online, it makes no difference). B isn't trying to hide from A and so still has A's "Can see my online status" checked in B's Friends list and is offline as well. 3. B is offline. Now A comes online (or is still online) thinking that B will not be able to see him as online in B's friends list when B comes on. Once A is online, sometime later B logs on and checks his friends list and it shows that A is online Its really simple to replicate. In a nutshell: If you block a friend from seeing your online status and are online WHEN THAT FRIEND COMES ONLINE, the friend will see you as online anyway (incorrectly). It will do this every time in the future as well when you are on when your blocked friend comes on. Your blocked friend WILL see you online. One quirk I found in the testing is that if BOTH A AND B uncheck each other's "Can see my online status" box, then it works properly and neither will see the other as online if they come on after the other is already online. The "Make My Online Status Visible Only To Friends and Groups" has no effect on this problem. It does not matter if its checked or not for either Av. The above problem occurs regardless of how they are set and I tried all four combinations of check box settings for that checkbox. It also does not matter if the two Avs are in the same or different sims. It happens regardless of the sim they are in. Curiously this problem began about 4 months ago at the time that web friends status was disabled for a week or so because it was not working right. This problem showed up at that time and has not gone away since. Perhaps the two events are related? One additional detail on this problem: In step 2, if the blocked friend (B) comes on first, then A comes on online after B is already on, B will correctly not see A as online in his friends list. The problem only occurs if A is online first and B comes online after A as previously described.
Agreed! Please do not mark this bug as fixed Jake.
Any friend logging in AFTER you will see your on-line status regardless of any of the privacy settings. 1. Block your visibility for someone on your Friends List. ...it's that simple. Clearing cache at log-on isn't necessary, but it has glitched a few times for me without it so I would definitely recommend it if you're trying to repro it for the first time:
In Jake's jargon the steps are:
Result:
(Repro'd successfully a dozen times both ways February 2nd on the main grid with the WindLight client) Irrelevant to the repro:
Just wanted to mention, THANKS TO YOU who provided us with additional repro help – YOUR assistance is very much appreciated in helping us move along with this!
I think this was resolved in fixing some thing else inside of the codebase.
I can't repro it with the tip code on either a windows simulator or a linux one, and neither can QA, so I'm calling this closed right now. Jake, THIS IS NOT FIXED. Try it on the live grid with the repro steps that we all provided over the past few days. I just tried it yet again with two avs on the live grid and it failed. It fails every time under the conditions we documented. Please don't give up on it. IT'S NOT FIXED ON THE LIVE GRID. If it were, we wouldn't be bothering you.
I agree, it's not fixed on the live grid using the 1.18.5 (3) client.
Can anyone explain what Jake means by 'tip code'? Could it be the case that a Linden isn't affected by this bug. I seem to recall that Linden's have better 'invisibility' than normal mortals. Were you able to repro this Torley? ITS NOT FIXED ITD NOT FIXED ITS NOT FIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXED !!!!!! PLEASE REOPEN!!!!
Its been almost 5 months somebody pahleeeeeeeeeeeese help us ......it is still broken on the live grid as the other posters have stated and i dodnt know how to better explain it than the other posters short of meeting a Linden in game and shwing them. unbelievable , NO its not fixed.....please fix this has been going on long enough
Folks, please calm down. No one's going to let this get swept under the rug.
Jake said this: > I think this was resolved in fixing some thing else inside of the codebase. Let me translate that from geek: He thinks he understand now what this issue is, and he's pretty sure someone has already fixed this in one I don't think the reason Jake didn't see it is that a Linden isn't affected by this bug. First, I bet they probably use "mortal" accounts to avoid that kind of thing (ie Torley Tester), and second, I'm pretty sure that Lindens' super-powers don't take affect until they enter "God Mode" purposefully. The standard path for marking issues that have been fixed in LL and are waiting to be released is to Resolve them as "Fix Pending", so I'm going to do that now. Don't worry, folks, this is NOT a permanent resolution, and we can ALWAYS reopen this issue and get them to come take another look. We should leave it "Fix Pending" until the next rolling restart and test again then. Torley, Jake, can one of you give us any hints on when we can expect to see the fix rolled out? We had our rolling restart, I have retested the problem and nothing has changed at all. Its still broken as described earlier.
(( It needs to be looked at again. @Lex and everyone: I'm going to ask Jake. I don't think this change was made public yet but I'll get confirmation.
And YES, to confirm: we do test bugs with accounts that either: (1) are regular user accounts and don't have "super powers", or (2) if we're on Linden accounts, we test without those Linden powers enabled. Re-resolving as "Fixed Pending", and here's why: the fix is NOT public yet, but in our latest internal maintenance branch (at least rev. 79148), we haven't been able to reproduce this problem. It's somewhat of a mystery as specific work wasn't done to resolve this, but it's possible Jake's work on related code fixed this too (this isn't the only presence-related bug).
If that doesn't make much sense to you, just know that hopefully, a fix is on the way soon. Still not working. Sure. I have just reproduced this.
.-( Ditto..its still broke...throws up hands
Ive reported this problem the 23 of november as a Support Ticket and been following the process here from time to time. I can just add that i still experience the problem of being visible to everyone on my friendslist even if theyre not checked as being able to see my online.....the problem still exists and hasnt changed for this three months. I believe that the point someone made earlier here is correct. It all appeared after the function was closed for a week....and yes, its a big mess and it causes an impossible situation sometimes when trying to run my business in SL. IMs is coming in from a hird of friends as soon as i go online......even if lots of them are not checked as able to see me online.....hoping for a solution as many others!
Any word on when the fix will become public yet ?
Apologies for not being clear.
Yes, "tip" code means code from the tip of our code repository system here at Linden Lab. Basically it means "latest code". IE code that hasn't gone through to you guys yet. We have a system in place where by we all have 'branches' (ie copies) of the code at various times, and we apply our fixes to that code branch, which then gets integrated into the main code line we use. That takes time. Then we have to integrate those fixes into the main line, which then goes through QA a second time to make sure we didn't break anything in the mainline with our fixes, and that our fixes still work against the updated code. That also takes time. Other people do the same thing, and everyone goes through QA each time new code is added to main line. This takes more time. Then, eventually, when we are satisfied that we didn't break anything obvious, we roll the new code out to several test sims, and see what happens in the real world. If anything isn't working right (and usually there's something wrong), the code gets pulled back, we fix whatever it is, then restest it in the real world. This takes even more time. Then, eventually, when we are satisfied that the new code does actually work, we do a grid restart and roll out the new code to all the Sims. It can take anywhere from 4-5 weeks from the fix actually occuring to it actually getting out into the world because the amount of testing we need to do against the fix. Take into account you have a 100+ devs all checking in fixes and new stuff and you start to get a scale of the QA issues we have. Anyway, back to the bug itself. As I said, neither QA internally nor I could repro this code with the tip code we had (running on the main grid), which leads me to believe that this got fixed along the way but wasn't yet rolled out to the world in general, hence me marking this. We know what date the code was when I tested this, and we'll know when this is rolled out (at least Torley does) so if we continue to see this after that code is live, then we'll investigate further. Right now though, if I can't repro it given the repro steps that are reported here, I'm not sure what else I can be doing? As I have no idea which tip or repository Jake is using (don't you guys use version numbers?), this is just a heads up to say that this bug is still very much in evidence at 1.19.0 (4).
TIA OMG I think it's fixed! The recent Server Software Updates fixed it?
Second Life Viewer: 1.19.0 (5) Can anyone confirm? Yes, it actually seems to be working! Lets hope its not broken now in some other subtle way, but it seems fixed as of the current server update. YAY!!
Yes! Its working for me to now, it changed when upgrading to the latest server update!!! BUT do we dare upgrading the next time....brrrrrrrrrrrrr
 ))) This seems to have gotten fixed by some other maintenance work that Jake did. It's public now and is working!
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Bug
Resolved
Major
People who you have turned off "Can see user online status" can still be seen
, even though A had blocked B from seeing A's online status. This is NOT supposed to happen. It is an even bigger surprise to B if B had first checked the web Friends Online list before logging in and did not see A online there. A and B are quite possibly no longer SL friends after the ensuing argument about why A is trying to hide from B.