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Diricial Dagger added a comment - 29/Jun/07 11:37 AM
Please see http://alaskametro.blogspot.com/2006/09/skins-skins-skins.html
 where this very feature was requested by 2 well known content creators, Alaska Metropolitan and Chip Midnight , as well as by a respected voice in the fashion community, Celebrity Trollop. I'm absolutely for it ... especially for the head where the users currently have no way of modification with the bought skins being no-mod mostly. This would be excellent for makeup and other facial mods. Absolutely and the sooner the better. Add to that being able to SPECIFY the layer that clothing, etc, is attached (ie. that lovely top that for some bizzare reason is set to attach to the underwear layer and override it to the shirt/pant layer)
I currently have to wrestle with layers in order to wear the lovely tattoos I own. I am completely in favor of this proposal.
This is good (especially for the head), but really needs to go a step further to accommodate multiple or unlimited layers, otherwise it is simply a "Band-aid" solution. People will inevitably start to ask for more layers to combine multiple tattoos, tan lines, scars, masks, etc..
Another reason for the head is male hair. There is currently no good way for short male hair unless you have access to the skin. So if nothing else, a head layer would allow things which are currently not available, not even with kludges, e.g.
yes...even just as an "under-underpants/shirt" layer would be nifty, nothing worse than a tattoo apparently being just a sticker you plastered on over your undies (due to layer juggling). or worse, 'wearing' one and suddenly being naked cause it plain knocked your undies off to make way
I am thinking that a good nomeculture might be to keep calling the skin layer as the 'skin layer' and call the proposed new layer the 'tattoo layer', meaning that the skin layer is still used for... skin!, and tattoos, etc. no longer have to be placed on it as they have their own layer.
(I was thinking 'body art' layer as a more generic name covering tattoo, makeup, etc. but it sounds too clunky and 'tattoo layer' as a synonym for tattoo/make-up/etc. will likely stick well enough in people's minds Yes, please. A body art / tattoo clothing layer would allow for things unheard of : nail polish under gloves and stockings (guys, if you need to ask why both of these are needed, you don't deserve an answer). Or think tattoos under lingerie under regular clothes : mind boggling ! SL would close the gap to its main competitor in the immersive experience market : RL.
On a more serious notes, this would have to be implemented as an alternate layer for the current underwear layer to be useful (meaning users should select if current SL underwear, stockings or gloves go on the traditional or the tattoo layer), which means breaking the current clothing system's simple user interface in favour of something more like the attachment system (a default point, alternate points for those who know how to handle it). I'm not sure this would be quite as straightforward as it sounds : the different clothes layer boundaries and their skin closeness differ : a coat can be longer than a shirt, underpants don't cover the feet, stockings don't cover the hips (my pet peeve, BTW), not to mention those horrible skirts which seem to float 1 cm above the skin... Finally, I concur a tattoo layer should cover the head, allowing for face mods outside of skins. 106 votes, #2 of the top 5 'most important' issues, and the one without an LL Issue ID.....
but we got voice (yay. whoop. not.) I get the feeling we're being ignored. Btw, seeing Rheta's comment I think "body art" would be an excellent name for this layer. This is a good idea, but not as expressed it doesn't solve the problem. What is needed (although perhaps too difficult to do) is a simple layer-1, layer-2, layer-3 (which layer one being closes to the body) and so on. Now we can layer things in whatever order we wish, and as many layers. The drawback to many layers might be added lag, so designers would have to be conscious of this.
For example, we can have an underskirt in layer-1, a skirt in layer-3, and a belt in layer-4, with layer-2 left open for later use I have to say again just like others, to make lindens hear us again!
We need at least 3 or more layers on each parts such as head (not face.. on top of a head.. skull only), neck, the back, ears, and so on but the face, we need 10 layers on face because.. we like to wear different type of makeup by different designers. Like example: Naught Design's eyebrows, Gala's lipstick (if she want to create her own lipstick boutique! She can do it, she's so good at it), or maybe Minni's eyeliners, eyeshadows. We wear sperate layers all together as one unique look. Mix n' match! That's what I always want. And then I like to add my own hairline or maybe Naughy Designs might add her/his own hairline on skull layer (I so wish that..she will make a fortune for sure), then I would add a beauty marks on face, then add maybe a little tattoo on cheek say butterfly or tribe or whatever...for a funky look. We like to wear different look as long as we keep our favorite skin body base as long as we don't look different everyday. I love my face everyday but I wish I could change my eyeliner or maybe different color of cheeks. So newbies can make great business as well. No experience require! Example Newbie can create blue eyeliner and sell it, that's it! Nacre Swindlehurst' suggestion is interesting.
Since appearance layers are pre-assembled on the owner's PC and uploaded as a single (well 3 actually) completed texture, the only person who would be penalised for having dozens of layers on at once is the person doing it. Everyone else will still download/render the post-assembled version, Possibly making the current skin/underwear/outerwear/jacket/skirt layers default to layers 2/4/6/8/10 until the user moves them elsewhere would allow a seamless transfer to Nacre Swindlehurst's system too. Something to consider great great great!!!!!
It would be VERY usefull too, when "remove all clothes" would not remove the tattoos, make up or anything in that layer. It would be cool if we could have some sort of "layers" panel (think photoshop) where we could simply move things higher or lower. The client bakes everything to 3 textures anyway so only the user loading the initial layers has the performance hit from downloading them all.
Adding extra layers on all parts of the body would be kind of nice, but really all I care about is a head texture. It's ridiculous that we currently don't have a single clothing layer for the head. All we have is skin. Just adding a single head texture layer would be a huge boon to SL's economy. Skin makers could just make regular skins without having to add beards or make up. They could just have the beards and make up layers made seperately, so customers could buy one skin and pick and choose their beards, make up, tattoos, scars, etc. seperately. People could produce lines of just make up without having to create a whole skin.
Most notably, it would finally be possible to have a decent mask without the need for careful prim manipulation. Wrestlers, super heroes, and ninjas everywhere would rejoice! lol The current clothing model is really kind of strange. I mean, you should be able to make a jacket "loose" independent of the shirt layer... currently we have people making "long shirts" with a shirt and a jacket with a transparent upper layer so you can adjust the shirt.
I like the idea of adding arbitrary texture layers, I also think that any layer should be able to be "loose" and so modify the mesh based on the layer's alpha. That might even be able to eliminate a lot of the attachments people use for elves/nekos/furries/monsters/anime characters/... The fixed number of clothing layers is a blatant violation of the Zero-One-Infinity rule:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule You should be able to freely stack any number of layers of clothing any way you want. Just like you can in real life. Just wondering how/if this is coming along and why we haven't seen any Linden comments? A lot of people have commented that Windlight should force a rework of the avatar mesh, including the awful skirt layer; could this be a good time to add new clothing layers as well?
I wholly support this, but with some additional recommendations - I think a single additional layer isn''t really going to solve the problem. We should have many layers, and those layers should be able to be filled with packaged textures, in the same way that a skin is already a package of three textures. Someone should be able to have a base skin from one creator, eyebrows from another, eye makeup from another, lips from another, tattoos from a couple more, naughty bits from someone else, etc, and those things should not have to be distributed as raw textures. A system that worked along those lines would enabled secondary markets for skin related products, help mitigate texture theft, and allow people to much more easily customize their avatars to suit.
If we just get one additional layer for tattoos it will only partially address people's needs and we'll be begging for the issue to be revisited six months later, just like we've been begging for the last few years. We need something that truly addresses our needs and is forward thinking, and we needed it three years ago. Stubbly-headed girls would rejoice too. All the female skins I have found don't have the option to go G.I. Jane, only Kojak!! The current hair layer is horrid, and prim styles just don't work that well at extra-short lengths.
The idea of an open-ended texture stack for each body part sounds lovely – and it also sounds like something Linden Lab has no hope of delivering in anything less than three years. I don't want to wait that long. Just go ahead and add a layer, and then put the "perfect" solution on the things-to-do list. Don't let this turn into another 'Havok' or 'Mono' project; just deliver something in a realistic timeframe, then incrementally improve on it.
This is a very important post. More layers are necessary. The few we have to choose from today are insufficient and uncomfortable. Good post!!!
well, we're now the #1 issue (219 votes), have a Linden Issue ID.. but no comments from tptb on any progress??
It's fine you all voted for this but don't let me see any of you whine about instability etc etc.
 I would vote and go on the barricades for stop adding ANY new feature untill the current features are stable. Ofcourse just my "humble" opinion.
What kind of daft thing is that to say?
Many of us, myself included, have voted and commented on numerous instability issues. Oh, and reported issues of our own. Have you done that? Hey I see I commented and voted on The simple fact is that there are too many outstanding issues with too long a roadmap for addressing and resolving any time soon. Even with LL working on them. Many of us have come to accept this, and just carry on anyway. While we could wait forever for all of the more crucial annoyances to be fixed, many would like to see general improvements to functionality that have been outstanding – some longer than the instability issues. Take this issue, for example. So please, don't be presumptuous and trivialise other voters choices and actions. I would definitely love something like this!
Fiddling with tattoos is insanely hard! Especially if your bikini, (as a female avatar), is only available in underwear layers! How do you wear your tats then? As well, you cannot wear tats on the face without access to the skin. I have created things in the past that would have been best if there were a layer such as this, as well. So yeah, count my vote on this! As a clothes designer recently starting skins, it would be extremely advantagous to have these extra layers. Yes, I agree that there are more pressing issues that need attention, but extra layers should have been a default from day 1!
I would love to see this. With LL constantly trying to increase AV quality and capability, seems like it would be easy to have more layers: tattoo 1, tattoo 2, undershirt, shirt, jacket, etc, etc
I think one reason some people at LL might not like this is because they don't want people complaining when people put on clothes and then swap them around and do stupid things with them. Like for instance, wearing pants, but then wearing your stockings over the top of them. Also I'm sure there is a few fashion designers out there that would agree, when they make a jacket, they want people to wear it ON TOP of their bra's.
How about having layer types? Have a Jacket layer, a Undershirt layer etc and when clothes is worn, it goes on those layers in addition to anything else that is there in the way that was described by everyone? So for example: [Shirt] So another words, people could swap around the Bra and Tattoo, but everything that's meant to be at the top where the jacket is, stays on top? Would that work better? what about the god given right of a super-hero to wear their underpants over their pants? Xp
Grady, I don't care what fashion designers say – I bought the bra and the jacked so if I want I'll wear the bra over the jacket. In real life you can do that and I see no reason why I shouldn't be in control of what I'm wearing in second life (yep, the super hero example is great here
). Also in my opinion it's harder to implement many layers with many sublayers then one stack of layers.
To make life easier pieces of clothing could have an number attached to them saying where to put them on layer stack so for instance skin would have 0, tatoos would have 16, undershirt would have 32, shirt would have 48 and jacket would have 64. When piece of clothing is worn it will appear in correct place on the stack sorted by the number – user would of corse have posibility to change those numbers anyway (s)he likes. your solution witht he numbers is great for keeping things in the right order, but in more extreme (at least acording to the current standards) cases, like when someone has 16 shirts and wants to have a 17th one while already wearing a jacket, it would either take off the jacket, or perhaps go over it, I'm not sure
I'm trying to think a way to have default orders while allowing near infinite ammount of stuff between things, other than having layers and sublayers, but I'm not managing to ffigure out anything yet well, actualy, i thought about instead of integer, using floats for the order, the round numbers would be the "categories" (0=skin, 1=tatoo, 2=undershirt, 3=shirt, 4=jacket) and and the individual stuff would have an index between the reound number (indluding it) for it's category and the number for the next category, people would have the option of manually typing the exact index, swaping with the item above/under it, skipping over the other item to the point half-way between it and the item beyond, or simply jumping to the next category. But I'm not sure how big of an issue float precision would be, perhaps a fixed number of digits would need to be enforced, I'm not sure (if it used a limited number of digits, it coudl jsut as well use integers, and have each category have a huge range, like 10k values for each or somthing) and the index should be editable regardless of the no-mod status of the clothing (it is already annoying enough that you're not allowed to modify things you own, to be honest, witht he exception of copy, I find the permissions kinda absurd, it is like, you bought a can of Coke, then you're not allowed to throw it on a trash can nor build somthing with it after you drank the stuff, or before for that matter, the most you can is incinerate it yourself)
We really need more layers for more choices!!
This is absolutely something that is long overdue. Body art, scars, and other features become part of an avatar's being. To have to choose to wear clothes OR tattoos, or clothes OR scars or body hair, is an oversight that should be corrected.
This would be a lot more fun and let people be more unique, and it would be great for the economy!
I noticed that this issue has been up for nearly a year and a half and the linked post is from 2 years ago. Is anything being done? Is there a thanks but no thanks from the lindens? Anything? I certainly would like to see a separate layer for tattoos it would be very helpful. I've got lots of outfits that I won't wear because I'd have to lose my tats to wear them. I can, of course put them on any layer since the tattoos are ones I made myself but putting tattoos on a jacket layer makes the tattoo look like something drawn onto the shirt you're wearing.
Hi, my team will start looking into the technical feasibility of handling this. I expect timeframe for starting work on this to be within the month (i.e. before end of November). I will keep you updated of our progress.
Seraph please make sure this applies to the head also so that people have the option to buy make up for their skins in place of a whole new skins, this is long overdue and also there are people who would love to wear fantasy face tattoos and cannot do so with only one head layer.
The original proposal is a single additional whole-body layer above the current "tattoo" layer (the "tattoo" layer being used by 3rd-party skins).
I strongly recommend at least two or three of these new layers. If there's only one, we're back to the same problem. I also strongly recommend that we allow the user to choose which of these new layers one an item is worn on, similar to the way we wear an attachment, where we can choose the attachment point and the system remebers it when we simply choose "wear". That is, for this type of item, we get a new menu choice of "wear on skin layer" which leads to a selection of layer numbers (and there should be at least two to pick from, not including the existing skin/tattoo layer). Please discuss this with Chip Midnight before delving too deeply in design. However, I fear that his suggestion might be too big a change to make at this time. If so, please consider my suggestion above as an intermediate step. I'd like to see this implemented. Best scenario would be a tattoo layer of head, torso, legs and arms parts that'll go underneath the underclothing, shirt/pants, skirt and finally jacket layers.
And a head layer would give us a great deal of flexibility when it comes to make up/lipstick since skin sliders for lipstick and nail polish are currently screwed up (such as the nail polish slider changing the ENTIRE torso layer to the same color as the nail polish !) It's SUCH a pita to juggle tattoos with clothes and undies. Hi Seraph,
Any information you can share with us? thnx! Until the avatar mesh is updated to whatever the next generation is going to be wouldn't it be possible to just bake the various skin layers into a temporary intermediate skin and then use that as the normal skin would be used in the regular clothing baking process? And if the last few of them are kept in a kind of rolling backup you could try clothing on without having to wait for the extra layers to bake unless you are trying on a more than two or three makeups to go with the outfit.
Speaking for older male avis, WE NEED THIS. Shaggy prim hair looks ridiculous on us...and Linden hair...well..
So we're stuck with the wrong skin with the right hair, or the right hair with the wrong skin. I've so frustrated, I'm tearing my hair out! |
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3 New Avatar Layers - 2nd Tattoo layers between existing skin/tattoo layer and clothing layer
