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eshi otawara added a comment - 08/May/09 03:12 AM
is now* invalid.
i totally agree here.. why exactly was the pie chart system changed? i have heard it was to make things easier for full primmed out avatars to access apperance and stuff but don't you guys realize that you made it so we could do that by clicking on nametags? not to mention some of those items (like apperance) exist in the menu at the top of the screen, so i don't really see the point behind changing the pie menu.
when i first tried the rc, after the whole skin crap, i actually panicked when i found that it looked like i couldn't edit my hud items anymore, then i realized it was on another pie menu page. its not as bad as the skin problem, but it is very annoying for us who have been in sl for a long time and are very used to the old pie menu method of simple right click edit. not to mention anyone who makes tutorials for sl, people with gateways, even linden tutorials, will have to be redone to include this new pie chart. As recently as Wednesday on Metanomics, M Linden stated that LL is "in the process of working on a major overhaul of the SL client." Making unnecessary / unrequested changes to the user interface (UI), that have a significant negative impact on user productivity, prior to the release of the the new client, is foolish at best and at worst, demonstrates a complete disregard for the users.
The release of a completely redesigned client will pose a huge training and documentation challenge for users, the Lab and those of us who provide client training and support. In addition to the hard and soft costs associated with transitioning to a significantly different UI, it will also cost the Lab significant amounts of "good will" capital. In anticipation of this, the Lab should be doing everything they can to build their reserves of user "good will," not squander it on unproductive and unnecessary interim changes. It is correct that this prolongs the editing process of attachments unneccessarily.
Now we need one click more for every attachment detail. Also, to put "appearance" where formerly "edit" was, prolongs it even more for those who were used a certain combination because going into appearance mode freezes the screen for quite a while before it allows to leave appearance mode again. As a builder, specially when building hair (which most of the times happens while wearing it!) this is quite a time consuming process now. So can we please have the old pie menus back? Thankies! Beside that every manual ever written for attachments is currently quite useless and will increase customer support hours drastically for every merchant because their manuals now seem wrong, and redoing manuals if someone was really productive is quite a time consuming task as well. You know Lindens, I'm pretty lad back about things. I don't think I've ever commented on a JIRA.. So, the fact that I'm making a comment means you all really need to take into consideration this situation.
While I understand that this is a release candidate, the changes to the pie menu are terrible. They were not necessary. WHY did anyone think that changing an interface that residents who've been in SL for years know like the back of their hands was a great idea? Please please PLEASE return the pie menu to what it was. Why make more work for yourselves trying to fix something that wasn't broken and was fine as it is? I have to agree with those who have already made comments. I have never made a comment on a single JIRA, but this new RC is a trainwreck. The changed-for-no-reason pie menu, along with the appearance of blurred avatar nametags on every snapshot make me want to scream and rip my hair out.
This kind of stuff makes me wonder if the people who are allowed to make these changes even spend any time at all in-world. This is something that shouldn't have been changed ... Again. If I recall, this is the third or fourth time the pie menu has been changed with no logic.
Leave well enough alone and stop torturing your residents, LL. Focus on things that NEED to be changed. ~V. i heartily agree with what's already been said...sheesh. there are soooooo many more things that need fixing!
There is an unfortunate tendency to fix things that aren't broken....who is responsible for this total time waste?
This is only my second comment in Jira (the other related to the announcement of this "fix"), and since I am an independent software developer, you can probably admire my sense of restraint.
In one fell swoop, you have not only fixed something that wasn't broken, but by any reasonable usability assessment, you've actually made it more unintuitive and awkward for both noobs and experienced users alike. Edit must be at the top level of this menu. Like the guy in the White House who authorized the fly-over of Air Force One in the vicinity of the 9/11 tragedy, you really need to acknowledge that this was a well-intentioned but colossal blunder, and revert back until you implement a truly better way of doing things (true drop-down context menus, maybe?) Thanks in advance for your professionalism in quickly correcting this mistake. If I'm clicking on a prim attachment on my avatar theres only two possilbe things I want to do - edit it or detach it. Both these are now in second level. Gestures doesn't need to be there at all because theres a button on the bottom menu bar for it. And profile, for one's own avatar, is much more rarely used. These two should be 2nd level, and Edit & Detach should be top level.
Adding "appearance" to the top-tier pie chart is not a bad thing, but giving "gestures", "friends", and "groups" priority over "edit" and "detach" is absurd.
I'd hardly call an interface annoyance "Showstopper" priority.
but I agree that this change wasn't really that well thought out. Put the following things in the top level of the pie menu Edit Touch If anything else seems needed, fill in the extra spaces. But those are most important, and must be at the top. I would call hitting appearance from the now-programmed-into-peoples-brains clicking what used to be "take off" a showstopper. Utterly annoying, and completely POINTLESS. Why WHY does LL keep "fixing" things that AREN'T BROKEN TO START WITH.
I would just like to voice agreement here. Please back out this change. This was not thought through and is extremely inconvenient.
Adding this step makes a lot of extra clicking for those of us who build objects on an avatar. I'm a jeweller who needs to select and edit dozens of worn prims, and can see this as being equally detrimental to all prim avatar and hair creators.
Friends and groups options were already easily accessible, and do not need to take priority over editing options. And as for LL making it it easier for me to shout "wooooo" than edit a worn prim....hmmm. Given the public announcements about making the client more usable, I am astonished at this change. It's obvious that no analysis was done to determine the risk or impact, let alone the actual need for it. I've worked as a Business Analyst in some pretty ramshackle software houses in my 18 years' experience but this one really takes the prize. Do you really want people to beta test the new version? I suspect you've driven most of your testers back to the main release with this change.
The previous JIRA issue has been around for a year and has under twenty votes, yet it was somehow considered enough of a priority to be pushed into the viewer.
This one's existed for a day and it has nearly a hundred already. This is a very surprising very, unhelpful change.
As a builder and "Fashionista" who changes clothes and shops (which by the way Linden Lab pays your salaries in tiers and other fees) all the time, I have to say changing this pie menu is one of the stupidest and counter intuitive ideas I have seen you do. I went into appearance mode about 20 times yesterday just trying to detach things and not looking because I know where the detach is supposed to be. Kindly put this back where it was.
Please, redirect your votes to VWR-12946.
Seems that LL is looking at there to think about some changes in this new pie-menu (they triaged the issue yesterday...) And there Ephyu Reino posted a temporary workaround: "For anyone who doesn't want to wait for this to be fixed, I've attached an XML file that fixes the pie menu to work like the original, plus Touch and More... options, with More leading to a FULL avatar pie menu, instead of the cut down version. Goes in: Rename the old "menu_pie_attachment.xml" beforehand as a backup, just in case. I apologize for not providing an option for other languages, but this was just a quick and dirty hack to re-establish the level of usability I need to get things done." Why is it that lindens are all over something small like that when everyone is all happy and thinking positive thoughts, until they impliment it and the dust coulds and radioactive fallout occurs they don't realize they had set off a nuke. They don't even say an "Okay, were sorry we screwed up", or any other kind of informative or atleast apologetic comment to tell us they yes, really do hear us and they atleast read the issue.
Gonna suggest that this change be thrown away. It makes a common operation unnecessarily complicated while adding nothing that we actually need, so it's really a losing proposition. This bug is in no way, shape, or form a showstopper unless you are spergin' big time. A minor annoyance isn't the same as login being broken or the thing crashing all the time.
Huns, as much as you may feel this is not a show stopper- I would like to disagree. What is supposed to be show stopping here is the custom of changing things that do not need any 'improvement' at all in the first place while things that could seriously bump up the economy and improve Second Life don't get introduced fast enough. This is not a minor annoyance. This is another bump in what is really starting to develop into a turbulence. And the consequence of that turbulence is the sheer fact that the vast majority of productive population in world makes 3rd world country income.
I understand that a lot of SL users are not capable (nor interested) to tackle the viewer to the point where their proficiency level is on the level of some 0.5 % of most profoundly active users - but that is no reason to put out 'devolutionary' trends as if Second Life interface needs to change with every season in order to match a current style of pants. It is quite apparent that one of the major issues for Second Life is the unlucky 'first hour experience' - not because there is, essentially, something wrong with Second Life interface or experience - but because the average human who comes into Second Life is a typical consumer who wants everything faster then immediately and if he/she doesn't get it - it's the 'stupid computers fault' and 'the game sucks'. This to me feels like tripping the smart kid 3 times in a row so that dullards would catch up. I say no to that any day as I don't believe enjoyment of Second Life is a 'human right' but rather an achievement and a privilege for contributing participants. It is a showstopper in terms that as a builder, I CANNOT AND WILL NOT USE this client. I hate it with a hot hate. This is not the only thing that is broken, but this alone would be enough. DO you know how many times in the past 24 hours I've ended up turning myself around instead of editing? HUD objects can get me into edit appearance? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Pie chart changes=BAD. If you want to make them different, make it opt-able, it is BROKEN for people who are builders and editing constantly to now have to click twice as often to edit attachments. The number of times I want to go into edit appearanced are a tiny fraction of the number of times I want to edit something. Moving pie slices around is terribly confusing. Change=bad when it comes to disimproving workflow. I have NO IDEA why Linden Lab is on this kick again. First just arbitrarily removing the Camera Smoothing slider for no reason whatsoever, and now "let's mix up the pie menu just because".
Come on, LL. We've been through this before. I don't know what else to say except that this is exhasperating... I thought we were beyond having to be nervous when downloading a new client, and having to deal with the arbitrary changes. As we've been saying since 2003: If you're going to make a change that will affect everybody, at least make it optional. When Dazzle was happening, you guys said it couldn't be optioned; eventually, it was. You'll probably say now that this change isn't optionable - but the very fact that someone can change the XML and get it back to how it was, shows that it most certainly is optionable. I've read If you guys want to simplify the interface – make a beginner mode. But DO NOT take away what would be considered expert mode or legacy mode. It's a real slap in the face to the people who have worked and lived in SL for the past number of years. In summary, yes, revert this or make it optional. You guys said that you would be making interface changes that would appeal to new users and seasoned users alike. Was that just lip service? We're at a point where this can go down two paths: LL will continue to dumb down the interface (which seems to be a real drive: remove options, remove sliders, simplify) - OR, this could sensibly be developed into a beginner/expert UI. Lots of other programs do this. It's common, and would honestly allow you to "please everyone all of the time". But, development seems to keep going back to this "lowest common denominator" nonsense. Please. Start listening to the residents (again). Back in 06, you guys started making changes in interaction like stability and expectations in development; not having to worry about some feature changing radically or disappearing in the next point release. It got better in 07, and basically the "Oh what did we lose this time" dread of a new client release went away into 08. (Though Windlight was a bit of a fight...) Really, I know I'm only one voice, but hopefully the other 130+ in this jira can say it too: These sudden changes impact people. Folks have developed a 'workflow' on SL. They need to at least know what that's going to be from day to day. This is the case with most software that exists in the world; and it's done that way for a reason. People get to know your software, and then they get productive with it. I don't see the advantage in throwing a wrench in that for the possible appeasement of users that arent even here yet, who might approve of it more. Yes, it was planned in the
Nowwwww here just me
But lets say I have a full primed avatar ( In reality this is highly unlikely, I only make full primed avatars and own more then half of what grendels sells and several Isle of Wyrm Dragons ) There are two reasons you would need to access appearance in this way : 1) A piece of mesh is sticking through. 2)You are packing up a new avatar into a folder. really I cant think of another reason =/ Now lets think off the top of our heads things someone ( average user would need to edit or detach: Hair Are we following =/ if you dont have something from that list on your avi, i think your doing it wrong EDIT: YOU DID IT TO HUDS o.O I just tried this latest RC and I really had to give up after hitting appearance so often instead of edit, while trying to work on some stuff. I just don't understand the logic behind this, since it's totally builder "unfriendly".
I understand that LL is trying to simplify the UI for new users, but why make us builders suffer for that? Without the builders, there would be no SL at all. If simplifying the UI for newbies is what you are looking forward to, why don't you just offer two types of viewers instead - one simple version and one for builders with more advanced options, so people can choose which viewer they prefer. Something like the onrez viewer for example (which I only tried once) for newcomers. It was more simple and "consumer friendly", which is good for people who just want to explore SL, hangout with friends and shop. But please don't make such annoying and unnecessary changes to the UI, unless you're planning to drive away creative people from SL. Thanks. Can'Tell LL has an unfortunate tendency to fix things that are not broken and to break things that are working well and to ignore things that do require a fix , good job security for the LL programming staff.
Quickly approaching the end of my patience rope with the silliness. Another thing to call this change would be completely out of context.
This change makes the right click contextual pie menu not have the most usable options in context at all, because the most used options you expect to use on an attachment, Detach and Edit no longer are the first ones you get. I actually can't understand how this change will even help New users, as some people are speculating it was done for. Instead of the current very simple process of right clicking on the object and selecting Detach, new users in the future will have to figure out how to navigate though at least one menu level to detach anything, this will likely make it even more difficult and confusing for them. The only users I can see benefiting in any way from this change are users with full prim avatars, which new users fresh to SL wouldn't have. Please Linden Lab, listen to peoples imput on this and either: I constantly click 'appearance' now when I mean to click 'edit'... VERY annoying! For two years now I've been clicking the same pie menu slices a zillion times, and I didn't even have to look, until now... so I have to painfully retrain myself just to edit an attachment?! what possible justification is there for a change like this?!
I agree 100%. The menu should be made configurable, so WE can decide what is at the top level and easily accessible. If that can't be done, then go back to the old one.
There has been some re-design of the avatar and attachment pie menus in 1.23 RC2. When it's released, please take a look and see whether or not your concerns have been addressed. Thanks!
Hope so Dessie, thanx for the comment. I never saw a newbie yet who had problems finding Appearance but moving Detach & Edit is a major pain, they're surely the most commonly used options.
I have never commented before this release. This is a first. Please fix the things that are and have been broken for some time and leave the things that worked for every one alone.
It's bad enough the servers cant handle the loads, freeze chats, no longer can you see your friends on the map with the appropriate box checked (Newly broken thankyouverymuch LL again!! But this is too much and has pushed me over the edge. Why would you replace needed and used often functions such as EDIT with redundant processes. If people cant read the big blue spots at the bottom of their screen, do you really think a messed up pie chart will help? PLEASE STOP AND THINK... if i do this who will gain, who will lose and how much work are we creating for the "fix it" team. This is a terrible mismanagement of time and resourses. Please put it back!!! Note, there is another string related to this issue.... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12946?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=111715#action_111715 Congratulations, you changed the pie AGAIN and it's not any better. The most recent update made it worse by taking away our ability to get to our Groups from the pie, and by moving things around yet again.
PLEASE put it back to how it was originally, thanks. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. okay...
So first off, thanks for listening putting back the Detach, Edit, and Drop options on the top level pie menu when an attachment is right clicked on. It's much appreciated and will make both new and old users interaction with Second Life easier. However.. What's up with the rearrangement of options and removal of options such as Groups, and Friends, when clicking on one's own avatar? Can you be a bit less secretive and explain a bit of the motives that caused these changes? because I'm sure most of us watching this issue would like to know. Ok so now the pie chart is "partially fixed". Please fix the rest
 . Put all the things back that we rely heavily on and yes.. I agree with comments above.. If LL wants to make changes that so drastically affect the very community that supports them... TALK to us first and explain why you feel these changes are so critical. We might even be able to help you problem solve  .
I'd like to make a suggestion and hope the masses will allow me to be hopefully optimistic lol. I'd really like to suggest that in the future LL will do a survey "before" making drastic changes such as this in future releases My opinion is this. Fix what is broken 1st always.. THEN spend time updating some of those out of date tutorials o.o and PLEASE pretty PLEASE don't redo something that works prior without talking to your client base FIRST I don't mind if LL wants to enhance the pie chart, but I do mind greatly when features we have come to rely upon greatly in our our work are taken away. I don't think any one on either side enjoys this. And it should be "us" as in team.. not client base vs. Linden Labs. We shouldn't have to fight to make SL easy for those of us that contribute to the atmosphere as a whole to get things that worked before returned to us. Please put things back in it's entirety I worked doing essentially this same type of job. Our clients would of strung us up and quartered us had we done this type of thing with out communicating first. Makes goosebumps rise on my neck just the very thought of it.. eeeeks! Thanks for letting me put it my thoughts. Hope someone really hears me. I feel the need to add my two cents ...
I agree: if it isn't broken, don't "fix it." That said, I recognize the desire for a company to constantly seek improvement to its products and services. However, taking into account the size of Second Life's client base, I would assume that the "desire to improve" would be tempered by considering how many people a change will affect. When you have a client base exceeding 1 million, unilateral decisions altering GUI layout and design is, at the very least I think, frowned upon. Today was one of those special days. Some of us have outgrown the tool bar at the bottom of the screen (like on day 3). My snide attitude aside - really - please put Groups and Friends back into the avatar pie menu. The pie chart stuff did NOT need to be changed. Please put keyboard shortcut stuff back in the menus @.@ It would also be nice to automatically have the "Advanced" drop down category open just as a default. Put all the buttons on the lower tray back to where and how they used to be. Stop changing icons for things, please. They're good the way they are, unless you need to make one for something completely new, don't mess with them, please.
completely useless waste of time, again. good job LL
so you fix the edit and detach but break the groups and friends. what is up with you guys !! It's hardly that you put something there in place of these useful options so needed the spaces. That's all that is there now - space.
The 'Groups...' option has been added back to the Avatar self pie menu per Linden Lab Issue ID DEV-33599. This change will appear in the final 1.23 viewer release.
mccabes NEW menu is better. but if youre gonna use this one, at the very very least PLEASE flip the take off and the appearnce so take off is back on the bottome WHERE IT BELONGS. this menu still sucks ...
Like many other posters, this is my first JIRA comment. The pie menu should stabilize over the years - not have its core elements shuffled about for no reason. Second Life already suffers from a reputation of being extremely difficult to use. Please do not make core changes like this that hamper expert users and render useless thousands of hours of resident-created how-to's.
Give me back "Detach" at the bottom of the menu! I am used to it being there.
WHO THE HELL needs edit appearance? If you want Edit Appearance in, use one of the 3 empty menu slots, but DO NOT move the ones we use a hundred times a day! No no no no no! Still not fixed, put detach back where it was. Do not release it like this. 1.23.4 is NOT fixed. Residents will fight you tooth and nail on this, do not screw up the pie menu and the options we are used to using. In fact it would be great if you reverted the pie menu and in any spare spaces added this extra stuff, that way you do not have everyone who has been using the system for years on your back about it and you can still cater to people who are not yet here.
Till you do, expect much yelling, and complaining and oh and people reverting the pie menu back via XML (we will not adapt or get used to it, we will just change it). EDIT: (just changed year to years, as I had planned to write it) I'm very disappointed that this ill thought out change was implemented while critical bugs of long standing are ignored.
This isn't fixed in 1.23(4).
Detach and Drop are still not where they should be for attachments. Almost nothing is where it should be on the avatar pie menu. I can see SOME of the reasoning behind moving things around like this (putting the same option in a consistent place on multiple pie menus)... but it really screws up more important functionality that is used more often. For years, newbies have learned that if you're wearing a full prim avatar, you can do just about everything from the Edit menu or your name tag. It doesn't take long to figure out, and it's a very minor inconvenience, versus this major inconvenience you've forced on those of us who wear avatars with mesh visible (the vast majority of the population). If you MUST include features for fully primmed avatars, put them on a second level pie chart or in the spaces that were UNUSED before. As Aeron Kohime said above, people are using XML patches (like the one I provided in another JIRA issue) to fix this with every update... If you want the public to be happy, why not do what they do? Is someone at the lab obsessed with this new pie chart idea? PLEASE return the pie menu as it was. There are blank spaces so why not add new items there? This really will distress a lot of people, especially those of us not tech savvy enough to know about changing things back. In particular you're risking those (such as academics) who have been persuaded to give SL a try, are getting used to it for a few teaching sessions and then find the very basics changed. It gives them NO confidence in the viewer and undoes the hard work some of us are doing to spread the word about the benefits of SL. The more computer literate can find a work around or uncomfortably adapt, but please realise you're hitting your wider audience here!
I will not be upgrading to 1.23, and I encourage everyone else to stick with 1.22. This is a deal-breaker for me.
Second Life 1.23.4 (123523) Jun 9 2009 08:32:14 (Second Life Release Candidate)
Switch "appearance" & "take off", & all will the right with the world. Why oh why did I bother to update to 1.23.4.... oh, I know... it was recommended to resolve bugs and stuff by LL on the login screen. I now have more bugs than compost bin!
Why was the pie chart changed? Bring back the original pie chart or at least give people an option to return to the 1.22 viewer! Yes the old pie menu (the "good" picture) was good enough, and we could access everything very quickly. Now it is much longer to take clothes off, and leads to many mistakes, like going to Appearance mode due to muscle memory.
PLEASE give us back our menu items where they were, it is a hell to manipulate this menu now ! Thank you and voted already. Marine I am highly disappointed in the 'new' layout of the Pie Menu. It is severely frustrating thanks to it's counter-intuitive layout which is breaking a several year old tradition. It wasn't broken, why was it fixed?
I assume that when Jira like this turn so undeinably ugly in adversion to soething LL did (or did not do), Linden Lab employes refrain from commenting to keep from getting chewed up and spit out by Residents. (As we all know, if they say they will not be 'unfixing' the problem, will happen).
I take the pie menu of 1.23 as bug, hoping it will be fixed asap.
(the 1.23 pie menu is so bad it only can be a severe bug that happened by some accident) It is not only less convenient then the old one, it also breaks content of tutorials, instructions and (product) documentations. Especially in matters of usability and convenience the new one is but a disaster. Some examples about that bad UI-design:
... I will stop here, for I dearly take that the change happened by a bad accident and is a severe bug in this release and will be fixed back to the old way, soon. Yes, I agree too. I am looking forward to this getting fixed.
and yes, we have used the Go button on the pie menu, why was ot removed ? it would be different if the sections were replaced with other options, but to update the menu to now have 3 blank buttons dosent really make sense to me. Also btw, we love the pie menus, i really hope they will stay with us in the future, I have heard about the possibility of them being replaced with standard menus, please dont , we are very happy with the pie I'm attaching the files needed to downgrade back to the old pie menu as it was last seen in 1.22
These are the actual unmodified xml files for the pie menu from viewer 1.22 Go to your secondlife installation, subfolders \skins\default\xui\en-us\ Thank you Will for the work around.
It really is sad that it has come to having to "hack" the program though. This entire Ordeal just reeks of a group of programmers or designers deciding to take something that already worked well enough, and "Improve" it in a way that only makes sense to them. Sure some of the extra options are nice, but it was NEVER explained why everything else had to be rearranged to add them. It was merely a matter of reinstalling v1.22, copying the files and then installing 1.23 again and using the copied files.
But yeah, a change that major should've been talked over with the community. This is something where new people will see little benefit but established users will be gravely annoyed at doing this without warning. <Insert gratuitous comment about how they should be concentrating on getting something ppl actually ask for, like megaprims or +25 groups, to work instead> |
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Meta Issue
Fix Pending
Showstopper
Newly Updated Pie Chart (and the trend of fixin' what ain't broken)
