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I also noticed this today... specifically around the eye lash line.
While this is a change, this is actually expected.
It was necessary to re-order some of the layers on the avatars due to the fact that they were being rendered in different orders for different parts of the body. It is a change, but we decided it would be best to switch to the "correct" ordering of the layers now instead of later. The negative side effects you will see should be contained to the head texture - some layers that were previously obscured by tattoo layers that overwrote the entire texture were moved above the tattoo layer. These effects (eyebrows, makeup, etc) can all be removed by tweaking the visual parameters in the appearance editor. Wait what? Are you saying that the make up layers is now above the tattoo/skin layer? .... This is actually great if it is true, while people might look different atm, they can easily repair it. This would give everyone more options to adjust a skin they bought.
Am I correct in my thinking here? Oddly, though, I didn't see make-up with a fully opaque skin. I tested that right away because it actually looked like the order of layers had changed. Probably I should test that again when I can get back in-world.
I'm not going to re-open this at this time because I understand that the new layering is more correct. I am however concerned that the sliders for adjusting the opacity of these layers do not actually make them invisible at a 0 setting. Yes, they can be completely removed by other sliders, but I think the opacity slider is not nearly sensitive enough at the transparent end of the scale. Also, I'd recommend that this change and its benefits get some prominence in the release notes (maybe even the go-live announcement?) or some users are going to have a very negative reaction when they see their avatars for the first time in 1.23 I can modify my hair-base to correct the eyebrows. But my skin is no mod.
I really don't want to look like a clown, so I'm reopening this issue. There will be a lot more than a negative reaction - people will just refuse to use this viewer if they must look like this. My specs are:-
CPU: AMD (Unknown model) (3200 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 close up of eyes with lashes. Adjusting lash length to zero does not remove the effect. Perhaps sliders need more fine tuning? Some sort of accuracy perhaps.
Edited the description to reflect the fact that I can't seem to replicate my own report of the problem not arising on a non-alpha skin. Fact is, I can't find a modifiable non-alpha skin in my Inventory so god only knows what I thought I was testing there. Just replacing the Head Tattoo with a blank texture is one way to see how this works with no-alpha skins; it's also a good way to see what we're fussing about, in terms of 0-opacity make-up sliders not really setting full invisibility, and the 0 Eyelash Length slider (in Shape / Eyes) not completely removing the Eyelashes (which are pretty funky-looking now that I see them up-close
 ).
I honestly don't know how many residents the make-up thing will affect. The recent trend in human avatar skins is no-mod, and such skins can't adjust make-up anyway (which is itself arguably a misfeature, given that skin creators aren't creating jack in the make-up layer, but that's out-of-scope for this issue). Now that I see it, I do think that the eyelash thing is going to freak out a lot of people. A lot of people will be badly surprised by this. Most skins are sold no-modify in world. Attaching image of my $L4000 X2 skin that looks ridiculous with the lipstick slapped on, and there is nothing I can do about it since is no mod.
This doesn't make sense... Saying it is a feature and not a bug.
Most skins are no mod and that means that you can't tweak it to solve this *feature* This is not going to be a feature that's useful to anybody that wears a skin. The crude system makeups and eyebrows really don't fit existing skins and will just look like clown makeup like in picture 4 above.
Unless you also plan a system to make the makeup layers into tranferrable assets so that creators could actually design nice ones that blend well with the skins, then this is a poor idea to Nyx Linden: As logical the bake order may be, this breaks existing content because 90% of the skins inworld are no-mod. Will you force all skin makers to re-release AND hand over replacement copies to all of us that are stuck with useless skins that we paid dozens of thousands to acquire? I think not. I urge you to figure out a work around this issue, it is a deal breaker.
Yes, this needs to be changed. I don't know how many ... frankly, how many millions of U.S. dollars worth of skins were created in a good faith belief that the system they saw was how it was supposed to be. Mod eyebrows, which use the underlying makeup layer to allow users to set their own eyebrow color for a skin? Completely destroyed by this.
This is really thoughtless, frankly. This is a major content breaker! Besides the thousands of no modify skins that will be irreparable to their owners without tedious replacements from the creators, there are thousands and thousands more that are intentionally modifiable and semi transparent that are made to utilize the fact that the eyebrows and makeup are underneath the skin layer. This allows for customizable lip and eyebrow color. All of these skins would be rendered useless, as sliding the eyebrows to zero would result in an eyebrowless face, etc.
Please rethink the layering order! If you are going to rearrange the layers in this way then you must make the make up layer independent of the skin so that people can adjust if their skin is no mod.
Yes I agree, this would break content.
This has to revered or either make the makeup settings free from the mod rules. This needs fixing. It is unfair to break items that people have spent a lot of money on. Reverse the decision you have made please...
@Sachi, Frans: Even if the makeup layers were to be made seperate from skin settings, this still breaks a lot of content. Pretty much all skins that take advantage of transparency use those makeup sliders to afford customers a bit of customizability. If the customer cannot use them underneath the skin layer, then what's the point? Many features on skin which rely on that transparency would look odd without some sort of backing underneath.
If LL is going to continue with this reordering, I would really like some option for content creators to specify whether the skin is compliant with 1.23's bake order OR whether it is legacy content. That way, no old content is broken and new content can be made along the lines of the new bake order. Thank you LL for in one fell swoop you have taken hundreds of 1000's of Lindens away from me by ruining all my no mod skins. I appreciate it. Also thank you from all my friends who are skin designers who now have to put aside new work to fix your "feature" customer by customer. Once again action before thought. This is getting old.
PS: tell the room full of monkeys that came up with that list of "adult words" they need a new dictionary. Perhaps you Lindens should be worrying more about the whole stability issue and the items that just vanish from inventory instead of screwing with the way things look and the "adult content". If you had ANY competition Linden Labs would have been out of business years ago.
Considering it has been YEARS that skin makers have been making use of the current layering order- in fact utilizing them to enable you to tint certain areas of skins to further customize them in some cases, this was a very thoughtless and disasterous change. Especially considering how heavy handed and messy the built in makeup is as is, without being able to alpha out parts to make it look more decent.
Please, please rethink this. There are thousands of skins out there that will all be broken by this, and many of us do not have sales records dating back to 2003 (or any records at all). This will create an absolute nightmare! For the love of god just give us the extra texture layers we've been begging you for for the last five years. This is not a reasonable substitute, even if it wasn't going to break thousands of skins. This will wipe out literally millions of L$ worth of products people have used their hard earned L$ to purchase and places a burden on skin creators that's going to be simply too massive to cope with for many. I can appreciate what you're trying to accomplish with this but the cost is just far too high.
So... some Linden decided to force-change the order of tattoo / makeup layers on a whim? Without discussing or even informing users, who would have immediately told them what a bad idea this was? And in doing so, broke the majority of skins, with no way for consumers to fix them or choose to go back to the old way?
*epic facepalm* This is a stupid idea. Why is destroying a majority of the skins in SL a good idea?
WHO ASKED FOR THIS!?!?!?!?
GAH! I'm glad I made my own skins now. Still... Who frigg'n asked for this? This is NOT a correction. It is a destruction. EPIC FAIL! People have paid THOUSANDS of L$ for skins (Even per skin) that will now be totally RUINED by this change. This has no effect on my since you can't see the LL head under a prim head... BUT... holy bad makeup, Batman, what were you thinking?
Shouldn't this be a showstopper? It breaks a LOT of content.
Raising priority to Critical, as this is a very-widespread issues resulting in effective content loss, i.e. countless now-ruined skins which will need to be replaced, at great cost to users or effort to skin creators, unless this is reverted.
thanks to Jacek for upgrading this issue to Critical, as it breaks millions worth of content
"nyx linden added a comment - 27/Apr/09 03:15 PM
While this is a change, this is actually expected. It was necessary to re-order some of the layers on the avatars due to the fact that they were being rendered in different orders for different parts of the body. It is a change, but we decided it would be best to switch to the "correct" ordering of the layers now instead of later. The negative side effects you will see should be contained to the head texture - some layers that were previously obscured by tattoo layers that overwrote the entire texture were moved above the tattoo layer. These effects (eyebrows, makeup, etc) can all be removed by tweaking the visual parameters in the appearance editor." NOT ACCEPTABLE. You break way too much with this. Do what we've been asking for for months MORE LAYERS. Add me to the horrified consumers list! My skin of choice is a retired, limited edition one- I will never be able to replace it- FIX THE FIX THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FIXED!
Please quit breaking the few things that work in SL. Thanks to some great creators we have lovely skins in SL and a wide choice of styles. Your breaking this content will just further disrupt the SL economy. Please take take the available resources at LL and fix what doesn't work..there is plenty of that to keep you all busy.
first the good part, I think this change is leading to features we have all been asking for. The bad part is just what many here describe. there need to be a way for "legacy" content to be viewed correctly, such as a feature that the user can set the layer order.
I'm going to add that some skins use alpha on the eyebrow detail to allow for tinting and coloring and still retaining the graphical detail of the skin. So, like my own skins made from Eloh's PSDs, I set eyebrows to a large size to fill in the alpha area evenly. I will LOSE that control and have to upload a number of head skins, each with the desired eyebrow color, to achieve the appearance I want.
Again... WHO ASKED FOR THIS?!?!?!?! A preference of mine would be that the default avatar slider based content be simply removed and we get a white base avatar mesh to place our textures on to. Also. Has someone verified how many of the default library avatars will be broken with this? Most all of them rely on tattoo layer skins now. Unless they're adjusted accordingly, they will be ruined as well. They haven't thought this one through. That is pretty obvious.
Keep the votes coming and I am confident they will reconsider this change or implement a fix. I know - I am the eternal optimist If Linden Lab was failing any harder right now, their actions would be made of diamond.
I agree with most of the commentary above. While this change has it's reasoning, it will "Break" many of our skins. And eyelash to 0..with it still showing. I am sick of that...fix that!!. The idea of making those sliders available even when the skin is no mod seems a reasonable solution but I MuST be able to tweak the eyebrow shape, and when I set system lash to 0..i mean ZERO
Thanks for all the feedback!
We're looking into the issue here, and are looking at the various options for fixing this. Clearly this is a very frustrating bug causing a lot of people grief, and we're looking into doing something about it soon. This is one of the reasons the public nightly exists - so that we can get fast feedback on when our changes have a larger impact than we expected. Your voices have been heard! More on our plan for this issue later. In the meantime, any skin should be unaffected when using the 1.22 client. Don't fix what isn't broken. So this will screw up every no mod skin we own.. No big deal right lindens?!?!? We pay so much for this game and yet you STILL screw things up for us. This "fix" isn't a good idea. Every skin artist will not reissue skins to fix this, and some don't reside in SL anymore. This is a failed idea.
I understand that content must occasionally be broken to make progress. But, when you break this much prized content, try phasing it in gradually. For example, you could preview the change with skin manufacturers, make a "test" viewer available for many months before rolling it into an RC. You could also find a way to make it easy for skin makers to automatically replace broken skins with new ones.
. Hahahaha that's histerical!
1) Lindens usually look like N00bs and dunno much about this, i am sure they had good intentions and probably didnt know they destroy peoples work and market 2) Skin creators should get together and get a restraining order against these changes This is like the scheduled downtime on Halloween 2007 ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FU*KING MINDS? We really need legal protection from things like that! Sure LL it was a bug when you first started secondvlife, now with the countless skins (Pretty much all of the skins in SL) useing a viable work around that no one really notices (Becouse most skins are no mod). if you attempt to fix it now a simple bug that no one notices grows into a huge problem affectting almost all of SL users if not all of us. The only bug here is LL trying to fix a problem (that the content creators worked around) causing a bigger problem. I belive LL is listening to the new users and users not willing to put RL money into SL with freebie and libary skins wanting more options with them. Sure there is a small market with making them happy but do they really contribute to LL;s bottom line as much as those of use that spend 10's of 1,000's of Lindens on skins that would no be worthless? or the countless time needed for skin creators to regift all there past customers? Some of these Skin creators spend over $2,000 a week US on classified ads, are you really sure you wont chase them off loosing that $2,000 a week sure money to make a few newbies happy? Tell them to pony up and buy a decent skin for aroudn 500 kindens and up.
So let me get this straight...LL has decided to break a ton of content and give skin creators and their customers nervous breakdowns, just so they can reorder the skin layers to make something NO ONE WANTS TO SEE more visible? Why would you even consider that?
If you are SO desperate in dealing with Avatar customization, why not make more attachment points, like neck, ankles, fingers, wrists, forehead, nape, knees, elbows?
Buy yourselves some, because you look like noobs out of the factory, and get something more productive done, instead of trying to "fix" what was NOT broke in first place!!! Hey Nyx, I recognize that you were trying to make things better. But here are three things you need to remember. 1) Any change that effects the skin rezzing, the shape rezzingor attachment points with be without controversy. Never do this without discussion even if change is beneficial. Skin makers are an emotional lot. They are the core of SL, without them we would be as ugly as There. 2) No one wants to look like the default avatar. People are forced to. This is why skins exist.
3)Breaking content is always a bad thing. Break thousands of L$4000 content is a showstopper thing. This "fix" will ruin some of the most beautiful and versatile skins in Second Life (including the ones I wear constantly, and have been wearing for years now). For example, any skins that allow slight user modification of lip color are using semi-transparent alpha textures. That content will be broken.
If this has been incorrect for years now, then it's no longer an error, it has become a relied-upon design feature. Please leave it alone. Thanks for the feedback! Like Nyx said, the reason we have public nightly viewer releases and Release Candidates is so that we can be aware of issues that unintentionally end up negatively affecting a lot of residents.
This change was made as a result of bug reports in PJIRA regarding inconsistent ordering of texture layers between the lower body, upper body, and face which resulted in broken content. In attempting to fix this broken content it appears we've broken different content (that relied on the previously existing bug). We were in fact trying to fix something that was already broken, not just arbitrarily making layering changes. We're aware of the issue and are in the process of fixing it. In the meanwhile, thanks again for continuing to use the public nightly and RC viewers and reporting issues you find, so we that can be made aware of them before they make it into an official viewer release. We don't want to break your content, so please continue to report any issues you find in pre-release viewers so we can promptly fix them. booted it up to showstopper because it will break most if not all skin content.
Well, after reading all the posts here and in the forum, I am seeing that this 'bug' could have it's advantages, but as it stands, NO! If this 'feature' does stay, then being able to turn off the makeup layer with a checkbox should be considered, or adding another skin/tattoo layer above the abomination. As others have pleaded, stop trying to fix things that don't need to be, and fix problems still pending. Give us more attach points, more layers, more options, sure, but don't CHANGE what we've got until you know that existing content can still be used successfully. Listen to your residents!!
EDIT: Ok, so BigPapi Linden posted as I wrote... good to know this is being taken seriously and hopefully will be fixed. Ok this is not acceptable, happy you are working on fixing the fix. Please link me to the download of the Shadow viewer so I can test it in Beta also. I have not found the "Official Download link".
Many people (myself included) have a hugh investment in no mod skins that we love to wear. For many of my skins, the creator is no longer in business to get replacements from. Please re-think how you intend to implement this. There must be a way to do this without destroying something so personal to many of us, our skins.
@BigPapi "In attempting to fix this broken content it appears we've broken different content (that relied on the previously existing bug)."
I do want to point out, that as far as I know, at no time in the past was it ever communicated to the community that the current behaviour was not as intended. This is how it has behaved since it was released the first time! (2003/2004?) You can't expect the user base to see this as a bug or broken. Calling it a bug in this case is a strawman, so you can support your argument to break it down. The point is, there might be a inconsistency in how something is done internally, but it is behaving as expected from the user point of view. I can understand you would want to correct this. But from what I learned the 2003 makeup toolset is not fine grained enough to do what people need from it in 2009 to have the same results. As a technical person I would like to understand how the texture layer ordering is inconsistent and what content got broken? As far as I'm aware the tattoo layer is always the upper layer on all body parts. FYI, for people like Nika Talaj. There is a discrepancy on the lower body. Freckles and definition appear on top of the tattoo layer, unlike the torso and upper body. I think moving the lower body alphas underneath the tattoo layer would be the simplest and most user-friendly fix.
@Sunshine
But it hasn't been changed yet, releasing this early build to early tester is so they can ask input! Again this is not even in a RC yet, this is way before that stage! I've got to agree with Starley here- if you want to "fix" this, fix it the other direction, as it would make more sense. I have been irked by nailpolish above the tattoo layer for years, because it would be yet another way to allow customization in mod skins- the built in layers NEED to have things over them making them look better, they are very clumsily alphaed and detailed (if detailed at all), which is why most skins cover them up completely.
You might have a few people wishing for freckles on the top, but as that's never been consistent across all layers, I doubt it's a feature most users have ever tried (especially in light of the fact a lot of skins are no mod, and many skin makers offer freckle options that look better than the built in option). Thank you for that clarification Starley! And yes moving the freckles under need the tattoo layer makes sense, if that is the issue they are trying to fix. But would likely also break some content, but maybe a small enough amount that it would be acceptable.
As a programmer I can see why you would want to change this code to have consistency on all body parts, but you have to question what you do also has positive results for the user. Prettier more consistent code in itself shouldn't trump user experience. I think the idea also was to give the user more freedom to apply some changes to skins, but sadly the tools are incapable to blend with the quality of most skins which the majority of the user base use. I would love to see a more in depth community discussion on how to this could be achieved best. I'd like to say it will ruin the most of skins in use in Second Life, so, in order to protect creatores and costumers, the change would be in other direction!
I can certainly see the benefits to this, assuming the next step is to fix the slider based make up to look acceptable. However, even at this point there has been no indication that there actually are any plans to fix the slider based make up.
(Really, all of the slider based skin options could, and should, be improved. But that is another issue.) Also, this change will cause serious problems for much of SL's userbase, there has never been a good reason to make a skin "no-mod", but there has also never been a good reason to make an opaque skin "mod" either. The point has been entirely moot, so I cannot entirely blame skin makers for simply not thinking about it. As the intent of this change is to "improve" our experience, I'm rather shocked that Linden Lab has pushed ahead with this idea while other more necessary feature requests, such as providing avatar height information in the editing window (a basic and necessary design tool, the lack of which has irreparably damaged over 5 years' worth of SL content, and greatly contributes to SL's reputation to poor visuals) continue to languish. if you want people to leave SL then go ahead
I see several problems with what i am reading.
1. Peolpe have made a huge investments in their current products and to force them to have to buy new products I think isn't smart unless you are greedy and like forcing peolpe to spend money. Seems to me it is ok to have change. Change is good, we expect change. What I believe we don't expect is change to break things. What I suggest is you have a skin version capability in that all existing skins get baked under one process and skins that get created new can choose to use the new option. Then give maybe 6 momths or more for peolpe to change their products over to the new version. It's been said before, but it bears repeating: years of user development would be made useless by this "fix," and millions of Lindens would be lost by consumers. I would consider implementation of this "fix" to be a act of extreme bad faith on the part of Linden Labs, and while I don't currently make skins, I would seriously reconsider my decision to make items for sale in SL: what surprise "bugs" am I exploiting to make my items? Will I have to remake huge portions of my shop's inventory with very little notice? I think Frans said it best: "Prettier more consistent code in itself shouldn't trump user experience."
First life becomes a very attractive platform in situations like this. It's had the same viewer for 15 billion years, which is really handy when you're developing content. I realize that I'm a small business, but that doesn't mean only small creators would walk. The larger the creator, the more likely it is that a major change like this would be impossible to fix and still bring in income. Some (and by some I mean a good chunk) may opt to seek employment elsewhere. Given how heavily SL is advertised on the basis of custom content, I feel this issue cuts to the core of how you bring in new users and keep them. Business works best when its a "win-win" for everyone involved. Please keep that in mind when you work out a solution for this issue, and on future issues. The suggestion of making makeup independent of skin permissions could work, as could some of the suggestions from the avatar 2.0 jira (specifically, the ones about creating a 1.0 avatar and a 2.0 avatar, so older skins would still be usable). Take your time on this - it's more important to the potential new user that the adult content changes are in.. Us existing residents can wait.
I would second Mystical: change is good, but make it optional somewhere (a checkbox for "current texture layer order" or "new texture layer order", default being the current one, of course), and give people 6 months to adapt to the new order. A good skin creator will take at least that time to create new skins from scratch, and even with the option, I'm sure that after 6 months a lot of people will complain because of all those "old skins" that stopped working.
I can imagine other alternatives, too, like a setting for "do not apply makeup"... even nicer would be a completely new preference tab where you could set the order of your layers at will But changing it right now and breaking millions of US$ of content? No way! very interessting to know bc to time i'm working with alphas but now i don't release that in my why... really crasy... and OMG i don't hope that this breaking comming......
While I am all for improvements to the Appearance dialog, any such tweaks that are likely to break content should be announced with plenty of notice so that creators and their customers may make the necessary adjustments in time.
In the case of no mod skins, I think creators are to blame for being overly zealous with permission restrictions. This problem should otherwise be something of an annoying inconvenience. This "fix" will break 99% of the skin created on SL for sure.
Second the makeup layer over the skin layer is for me a huge error. Many skins use the "trick" to have some part of the face semi transparent to allow people to mod eyebros color or lips color. If u make a makeup layer in fron of the skin like i see in the picture we obtain for sure a lot of monsters going around SL. If the order of the layer is for LL that the makeup layer must be in front of all.. well make soem option to this like: 1) Hide/unhide makeup layer I hope that LL will listen all the right comments posted here before releasing this new feature. Another good option many many time requested is a new tatoo layer on the head... why not add this and leave the other things like now? If this change is implemented not only will it break millions of US$ worth of content but effect a whole industry within SL....The Fashion and model sector will be forced to redo a large majority of their content...some of the larger skin companies are going to take months to have to fix all their skins... I think this would not be a smart move for no gaib other than making alot of SL creators lives Hell...I SAY NO!!!!
/me puts her arms around her inventory and starts sobbing hysterically... "how can you even think of taking these away from me?!?!?!?!"
As a commercial photographer and blogger.... I depend on a huge inventory of skins (thousands of them) to do my work. How can I expect the designers to shoulder this burden of redesigning and replacing all of those skins? How about limited edition items? Or skins that have been retired? "Fixing" this "bug" will literally rob me of tens of thousands of L$ worth of inventory that I have worked to accumulate. This may be the most unacceptable thing LL has done since.... since..... anyone? anyone have a bigger SL fail than this? Please, either don't do it, or find a way to do it without alienating thousands of skins designers and their customers. This actually isn't a terrible idea in principle if it was done with a little more thought and knowledge of content in SL. Having a make up layer above the skin is a super plus but if so it must be a seperate layer and independent of skin sliders, it needs its own texture window so that make up textures to compliment the skin worn can be applied. It needs to be done differently to the way described in this jira.
There needs to be a seperate eyebrow layer under the skin, perhaps the current make up layer before this change, independant of the hair layer above so that people can enjoy modded eyebrows. Freckles have never worked, its great to fix them. But in a way that doesn't break other content is far nicer. Nyx please talk to us, if anyone knows content the designers do, specially those who have been around a while and there is more to revision of the avatar than just the technical side of things. It does need work and its great that you are doing it. I'm pretty sure most of us would be up for a chat and we'd love to help. I've got over 20,000 Lindens in skins. None of them are modifiable. Most of them are more than 2 years old. Given the time involved for skin makers to redo layers, the length of time on purchases and the ability to look up transactions beyond 90 days, the number of customers who will have problems with this issue and the impact it will have on the skin maker's business in terms of halting skin creation until they deal with the issue, yeah, I've probably got 20KL worth of useless skins. Please fix this. I'm not rebuying skins. This has the potential to seriously harm a lot of skin makers' businesses.
Like everyone else here, I would like this changed back. Not only are many skins no mod, but some skins are specifically designed to let parts of the Linden eyebrows, makeup, or skin tone show through, in order to let users customize their eyebrows, makeup, or skin tone, respectively.
This change will put many residents in a financial hol as many of us have purchased expertly created skins that will, after this change, look worse then the newbie skins. As was mentioned before, many of my favorite skins are "no modify" and the few that can be modified, well, I wouldn't even know where to begin to correct them.
I am definitely against this change. Definitely against this for all of the reason that have been mentioned above...mainly the cost of replacing no mod skins that are already in inventory.
more layers ok, layers order change NO WAY
So, is the Linden who thought up this "genius" idea looking for a raise, perhaps? Or were they just bored and wanted to f**k us players over? Let's face it, when's the last time you people at LL did something for us players that didn't involve creating new bugs, creating more lag, or just plain ruining our gaming experience? Fix pre-existing issues before you decide to mess around with how our avatars look, please and thank you, and try asking us first. As everyone has said, most skins bought in game are no mod, so this leaves us consumers and skin makers alike in bad spirits and screwed out of a LOT of L$. Put the layers BACK in the way you had them, and next time, try asking for opinions BEFORE you release something. You'll have lots less angry players who want to wash their hands of your antics.
Oh, and if you want to be "helpful" with your changes, why don't you give us more group space and picks for our profiles? I've only heard the entire grid clamor for those for over a YEAR. I have 10s of thousands of Lindens tied up in skins and it is very distressing to believe that a change of this magnitude would be initiated. The reality of time and lindens needed to correct skins or repurchase skins, in this time of global economic crisis, make the Linden revisions appear insensitive to the consumer/designer base that funds their platform...
Tell me, who wouldnt rather their face look good over a few freckled legs? Most of us(well, other than the Linden family) enjoy the ability to refine our appearance by purchasing skins that are attractive to us...but, why would we continue? If, we are made into SL clowns- Personally I think the eyelash issue (which I only have on 1.23 PN along with most others using the PN) is a separate issue from this. Someone using a 1.22 viewer does not see the eyelash issue, whereas they do see the makeup issue.
Perhaps rather than backing entirely away from this idea, a better approach might be considered? Is it possible to work this in such a way where residents will have the ability to use the no-mod skins which will be broken by the current implementation?
I do not doubt it would be unpopular if LL were able to make all no-mod skins mod, but that is one option. It would allow the owners of these skins to continue using them as they could simply remove the makeup. I'm not entirely certain what skin creators hope to gain by selling a skin no-mod. As I mentioned in my previous comment, prior to this change it was simply not an issue. Or, perhaps there could be a skin option added which allows users to hide or show makeup regardless of skin permissions? Is that a possibility? Another thought, perhaps the current tattoo layer could be moved back above the makeup, and a new "skin texture" layer could be added below the makeup. This would prevent old skins from being broken, but skin makers would be encouraged to utilize the new skin layer for their new creations, as proper tattoos could be added via the old "tattoo" layer as originally intended. More thought on alternate approaches might produce yet more options on how to move forward with this change in ways which will not brake existing content. oh, come on, please please, please, I have too much tied up in this game at this point. Thank you!
I will add my vote for this being utterly rediculous. Like everyone else here I have a ton of L's invested in skins and if these are broken, I will frankly be leaving SL and taking my L's with me. I hate clowns, they aren't funny. They are just scary and I am not paying to be one!
I can understand why you want to do this but a 5 year old 'bug' ceases to be a bug when everyone designs and builds around it. How about just adding more layers for us? Maybe give us more attachment spots? Please don't even consider adding this as a feature/fix, breaking something that isn't really broken isn't a fix at all. One of the sample pictures has me asking whether the original poster had enabled the experimental shadow/per-pixel-shading? The only time I've noticed strange/bad results with baking or texture mapping has been when I've had that enabled, and the example photos look remarkably like what I saw.
I have a great idea.
Instead of breaking content over some obscure thing forcing loss of potentially millions of dollars and getting lawyers dragged in... How about Linden Lab hire some people that know how to make avatar meshes that do not have triangles. I.e.; if you really had professionals working there that could build real 3D meshes and discussed this with the skinners and clothes makers of SL, the people that probably pay ALL YOUR SALARIES, then you might get support for a mass conversion to decent looking avatars that don't look like Linden Lab avatars but look very 2008ish. I.e.; LL may own SL but we pay your bills and buy your food. Stop making decisions without our permission. These type of decisions need to be a community supported decision. STOP ANGERING THE CUSTOMERS. Talk to us first. I have taken real cash and converted it to Linden dollars and spent those Linden dollars on skins purchased in Linden venues. It seems to me that it would fall upon the Lindens to monetarily reimburse me for any damage to my inventory. Which would mean them meticulosly going through ALL of our individual transactions histories and figuring out how much we spent on skins and then generating that amount into our 'wallet'. I do not mind one bit if the skins are messed up in this new viewer...as long as Linden Labs makes good and restores the funds i wasted on the goods they have rendered unuseable. Its a simple concept...you break it...you buy it.
Its getting obvious that the thoughts and actions that happen within Linden Lab have been done without the consideration of the culture, creators and commerce that happens within Second Life.
Improve the situation and listen to our vote, and fix this problem. This is sad and wrong. People work very hard to make the skins that all of us use and enjoy. Leave things alone and let the creative people who make the products we love do what they have been doing in the past. I also agree with Base, if they screw up the goods we have already purchased, LL should not only give us our money back, but give a little to the original creator for THEIR trouble too.
It would seem to me the simple way of fixing this if you have a no mod skin is to simply take that skin off, and put on an original skin. Then tweak the make-up sliders and simply put on the no mod skin ... that should work, shouldn't it? I'm not in world at the moment, but I do not believe "all" is lost.
As has been said several times here, as well as in the description:
We know of this issue. We are working on it. We will not leave content broken. This issue had a much larger impact than we ever intended. We would not suddenly break every no-mod skin on purpose. We're working on fixing it and it will be fixed before the final release of 1.23. Closing as fix pending, as we will be releasing a fix. It won't be in RC0, but it will be released soon. Thanks for the speedy response to this Nyx. We really need some way to allow people to apply makeup and tattoos over custom full body skins, and we have for a very long time. While allowing slider makeup to work over custom skins isn't a bad idea in theory I think it would be of little use overall because there's such a wide variety of lip shapes among skin makers. What I'd love to see is for the addition of a new type of inventory object that's a container for textures with alpha channels with permissions (in the same way that skins already are) that people could layer over their skins without having to have them modifiable. That would enable a strong secondary market for skin add-on products, tattoos, and make the clothing system far more flexible than it is. It would also remove one of the major reasons people resort to ripping textures. It would be a boon to designers and end users alike. Something along those lines is what we really need.
In the Jira about additional avatar texture layers there's a comment from a Linden from last year saying that the feasibility was being looked into and that we should expect updated information about it around November. No additional info was ever offered. Was any progress made in that direction? @Chip
Progress has been made on that and more. We're currently working on a number of avatar improvements including the addition of alpha masks to the avatar. We're also going to be enabling the ability to wear multiple items of the same type. So in theory you could have a "base" skin layer and add on additional layers for makeup, tattoos, etc. There will be some limits, but it should be fairly flexible. I hope to work on some documentation of the plans for the wiki at some point when things settle down. That's excellent news. Thank you very much for the info, Nyx. I look forward to hearing more about it.
I'm not going to dl the the viewer unless I have too. This is horrible.
This is just a bad idea! I don't want to lose all the skins I have purchased.
This is really bad. People paid a lot for their skins and now the most part of SL is going to look like this? You have to fix it before it comes bigger cause will make a lot of residents angry (and ugly, sorry i had to say it).
See also https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13051
 for evidence of this on Mac.
Also note that people running 1.21.6 viewers do NOT see this when looking at the same avatar at the same time, so it does not seem to be baked in, but an affect of the viewer looking at the avatar. Eyelashes are "clumped" with alpha channels. This has happened immediately after upgrade to 1.23.0 RC viewer. Have tried the usual fixes. Nothing has changed. Before I upgraded the Nvidia driver, I also had the eyebrow showing across forehead - total unibrow. Also, I don't believe this is the same issue as the earlier one. This just happened today April 29, 2009.
Running Nvidia GEForce 9800 GT with Driver Version 182.50 See The eyelash issue was happening earlier than today on the Public Nightly versions of 1.23 as evidence by the multiple pictures of it uploaded to this issue, but I agree as I commented on this issue earlier it is not the same as this issue since it is not part of the 1.23 baked avatar.
really disappointed that you guys decided to add this to the otherwise great RC release... you broke all of my skins and now i have to downgrade and lose some features i actually appreciated. i hope a new rc without this mistake will be available soon!
edited to add not only are some skins broken, but my boyfriend just put on one that made his entire head transparent! he is only a pair of blinking eyelashes and eyeballs under prim hair. not sure if this is directly connected with this issue but it seems to happen only with certain skins i have to wonder if the decision makers at ll are retarded.
this is stupidity on an epic scale. if youre going to destroy every skin on the grid cant we at least get a new mesh in the deal? I didn't see this on my own av until I downloaded the new 1.23 release candidate tonight. Attached is a picture with three images (skin comparisons.jpg) to show the differences. The first was taken with the most recent 1.22.11 release candidate; the skin shown is meant to have tintable eyebrows and lips, but is otherwise no mod. The second photo is with tonight's 1.23 release candidate; this is the same skin, without modifying any of the system sliders. The third photo is with the 1.23 RC, after moving the eyebrow density and lipstick sliders to zero. The lips are passable, but the eyebrows are almost invisible, and even with eyelash length at zero, as it is here, the system eyelashes are still visible. I've noticed this even on completely no mod skins; the system eyelashes can't be totally eliminated, so I still get that strange transparent look. This needs to be changed back to the way it was, ASAP-- it makes at least 2/3 of my skins unwearable. I've downgraded back to the 1.22.11 RC for now.
Sounds like with a fix pending .. time to ignore RC0 and wait for RC1 and watch the release notes
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release_Candidate/1.23 Good to see Lindens respond quickly I am downgrading to the previous RC. I think a lot of other people will too. This means you will not get more bug reports and feedback on this RC. Please release another RC with this bug fixed OR reverted as soon as possible so that you get the feedback you need. Thank you!
i've problems too whith my skin...i turn back to the previous version...please solve this problem
Second Life 1.23.0 (118378) Apr 24 2009 14:24:08 (Second Life Release Candidate) Built with MSVC version 1400 Sei a 133259.8, 268655.5, 351.4 in VIRTUAL ISLAND 5 located at sim5042.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.48.43:13002) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (1799 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 This is a huge issue and affects ALOT of people. I am against this and hope the Lindens will rethink this. I and a lot of people will be out a lot of money if the designers cannot redeliver skins. Please roll this back or give us an option to disable this feature.
This is one of the worse ideas ever. I agree with what has been already mentioned. Please stop messing up whats actually working and work on what isn't. No way I'm upgrading if this is the result.
The normal way of working in any software development is that if you want to either fix a bug or implement a change, you first do an impact analysis.
Impact considered should be the the impact on the rest of the code and on the existing data, to only name two. Would that have been done the huge impact this change has would already have been obvious. But even if you would have failed to recognize the impact, then various tests should be performed, before even thinking of releasing test-versions to customers. All this is clearly not done here. Saying that this is what the public nightly viewer releases are for indicates that you don't do any impact analysis nor any testing - you'll just do something without even thinking about it and then throw it over the wall to find out if it causes problems for the users. I find this so extremely unprofessional that I can hardly believe this happens in any IT department. As an IT professional I recognize and can relate to your problems generally. But this shows clearly how bad your company can be working at times. You should not only fix this change, but also fix your working methods. No offence meant, but I mean this seriously. It is at the end a breaking of property rights of any skin builder. and it is too a damage of trust of users, they spend their money for a well done skin. Is there an assurance of the Lindens they pay back the lost money of the affected citizen?
This bug seems to affect ONLY semi transparent skins.
My skins are absolutely unaffected by the makeup part of this bug, and they do use alpha, but ONLY for eyelashes - the rest of the skin is opaque. However, I have completely alphaed out where the eyelashes are on the head tga, and used the sliders to change their color. The eyelashes are really borked. I relied on the Linden alphas and they look horrid. obviously the alpha is not baking correctly on them. On the third party shadow viewers on a side note, the eyelashes are totally invisible... wish they were in this client! The good thing about this is that freckles and wrinkles work! Actually, I would dearly love to see the eyelashes just eliminated and put onto their own texture layer, so we can texture them up much better than currently. They are horrible to begin with, if you think about it Wow ouch, yeah! I notice this is now "Fix Pending", and I hope that means "we're backing out the change" rather than code for "working as intended".
This is the first RC in a long time that I've had to back off from, because I can't walk around SL looking ridiculous! I logged in to find myself with a huge unibrow, weird shiny clown-lips, and bright orange eyelashes. Taking off a tintable-eyebrow thing got rid of the unibrow (but left me mostly without any eyebrows at all), changing skins got rid of the clown-lips (but that's my favorite skin!), and only I could see the bright orange eyelashes. (The person that I had look at me with a pre-1.23 viewer saw the unibrow and the clown-lips, but not I think the orange eyelashes.) I agree that, in principle, it makes sense for a "makeup" layer to be above a "tatoo" layer. But the system makeup layer is not a proper texturable makeup layer, it's just a silly slider-controlled thing that looks bad no matter how you set the sliders. And of course the "tatoo" layer is where everyone puts custom skins, because there isn't a proper texturable skin layer. I'd love to see the whole skin layering thing fixed as in proposed in various other JIRA entries. (My favorite would be the current system-skin layer at bottom, a system-makeup layer over that for back compatibility, a texturable-skin layer over that, a texturable-tatoo layer over that, and a texturable-makeup layer over that, at least.) But this random incompatible change, that makes you look sillier the harder you've worked to make yourself look good, is a very very very bad idea. Undo it, please! I'm noticing an abundance of these type of issues of late. Now...I don't usually comment on issues simply because I feel that things run there coarse and things settle. What concerns me is this objectivity of "we decided it would be best" theory. Ok best for whom? (action meets re-action) Surely not the actual running income of the games existence, definitely not of the best interest of the consumer. Under the basis of the games creation I have always believed that from its insignificance of the birth of second life it has been in bringing in of creativity from SL citizens that has pushed the game as far forward and advanced as what it is today. Going and (to me) seemingly blatantly disregarding the work that people have done to make SL a more aesthetically pleasing environment is a rather crass action. Thats just my general perspective of these things, The issue at hand I hope will be repaired because I can see it being a rather large distortion in "actual" sales for a hell of alot of people. Whats not broke - don't fix.
How many people want to buy a skin Linden Lab made? There is your clue. The best thing Linden Lab could do is code it so zero of their nightmarish looking "makeup" or so-called eyelashes (actually more like fishing lure components) could ever show through.
It is not wanted. It was never wanted. People became experts at getting rid of it for completely obvious reasons. On the other hand if I was ordered to wear a Linden Lab skin I could see the critical need for the alpha transparency feature to completely wipe the Linden Lab idea of a hyuman skin out. Must be why Linden Lab people seem to be furries or 100% prim avatars a lot. How does M look using this idea of a LL "enhanced" skin? This is inexcusable, and needs to be fixed.
LindonLab, you break something every time you release a new viewer. You should be ashamed of this track record. Stupid idea... I'm a skin creator and that for me is nightmare... It is a destruction.
Yay, thanks Nyx! Sorry I didn't notice your posting(s) before I put in my comment. (Maybe the JIRA could use a feature where Linden postings are somehow subtly highlighted or in a different color?)
Pretty much every software product in the universe breaks something on every release, folks! Software is hard. I love it. Way to go LL ! I recommend fixing the nail/hand measurement of Avatars and finally get rid of those ugly prim nails
 however since competition never sleeps, you guys should consider CryENGINE™2 which would improve SL and opens many new opportunities and choices for Avatar Development and Environment. There's an old adage that goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Now before Linden Lab says "we DID fix it", just keep in mind that before this "fix" we didn't look like clowns. Now we do. So why don't you guys stop messing customers and PUT THINGS BACK THE WAY THEY WERE? Either that or give everybody who ever payed for a skin a refund. Who oversees the people who keep screwing up SL with these so-called fixes anyway? Perhaps time to clean your development staff......
Note to Linden Lab,
Never touch Holy Ground of the Users that are Avatars. Unless you know it will only extend it, not change it! This is beyond money, but lets start with money first. We are talking L$2.000-L$6.000 a skin here. Times tens of thousands of users. Financially, destroying content so many people paid serious money for borders on the criminal. You are burdening not just the buyers of the skins but also the creators of the skins. Countless commercially successful skins now instantly are without value.
But its far worse than money. Peoples skins, which they often wore for years, are at the VERY CORE of their SecondLife identity. It is how they look in world. Even a slight difference looks like a plastic surgery overhaul which people do not want, or in this case looks like we did a round vs Mike Tyson with the gloves off. This is way worse than just money. Its peoples identities. Forcing them to another look they really do not want. This will have great psychological impact inworld. A lot of people may see it as the final straw, leave SL and go run around as Orcs through the forests of Azeroth. So you want to merge the Teen Grid with the Main Grid, and turn SL into an amusement park. Do we really have to look like clowns to make the kids feel welcome?! We don't want kids and we don't want to look like clowns in our virtual lives and businesses. New issue with the Viewer ?? Thats a very good job Lindens...You are the Best in this field like always.
Keep up the Hard work.... I downloaded the new 1.23 release candidate and saw the horror for myself. This is outrageous! I changed into no less than 8 different skins to see if it made a difference. I had various results depending on the skin. With one I had no face at all, just floating eyes, one I had no torso, most I had a unibrow and clown makeup. I promptly went back to the standard 1.22 viewer thinking this would solve it. I was WRONG!! I put on the skins that I tested in the 1.23 and they now look the same on 1.22, not only to myself but to everyone that looks at me. I seriously hope that they aren't broke for good. They are very expensive skins, as I am in the fashion industry. I have cleared my cache and removed the 1.23 RC from my pc. Any thoughts as to a solution would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you wish to see my results, contact me in world for snapshots.
@Lucy Eberhart: Have you tried rebaking your textures with the 1.22 viewer?
Advanced menu > Character > Rebake Textures The description of the problem seems to imply that that should fix it. me wonders if most people read the other posts .. especially the ones from the Lindens ..I have to admit to being someone who will call foul and point fingers, grab the pitch fork and mass the locals and storm the castle screaming for Linden heads on plates to be delivered when they do silly things
However .. its a release candidate they are possibly going to break things and the reason is to get feedback and then the Lindens can react and enhance, back off, or ignore the feedback .. In this case nyx has posted a number of times .. In the problem Description "Thanks for all your feedback! We realize that our current implementation breaks a lot of content and that this simply is not acceptable. We are working on a solution, and will not leave the problem in the current state. -Nyx Linden" in some of the posts "As has been said several times here, as well as in the description: This issue had a much larger impact than we ever intended. We would not suddenly break every no-mod skin on purpose. We're working on fixing it and it will be fixed before the final release of 1.23. Closing as fix pending, as we will be releasing a fix. It won't be in RC0, but it will be released soon."" and "Progress has been made on that and more. We're currently working on a number of avatar improvements including the addition of alpha masks to the avatar. We're also going to be enabling the ability to wear multiple items of the same type. So in theory you could have a "base" skin layer and add on additional layers for makeup, tattoos, etc. There will be some limits, but it should be fairly flexible. I hope to work on some documentation of the plans for the wiki at some point when things settle down." Maybe we cut them some slack .. delete RC0 and await RC1 and then help test it ? just a thought @Athanasius
I did, to no avail. Cause baking depends on client side values anyway and there are so many pros and cons, it would be a better idea for further releases to give creators the choice to rearrange layers and leave this option like it is for current clients. Also good opportunity to replace the crummy default textures
@Lucy Eberhart: it eventually will change back.
I completely agree with Bitova Loon's sentiment. There is no reason to continue slinging insults at the folks we want to rectify this situation. A problem was brought to light and has been acknowledged as something that will be fixed several times. Calling people 'stupid' or 'retards' is wholly inappropriate and unproductive to the process.
i just tried the new RC and can't seem to replicate any issues except the eyelash debacle. I agree it probably serves no purpose to pile on the criticisms....although the lindens seem to have a notoriously deaf ear, i understand the need to express concern here.
As with everyone else I too want to see this issue resolved soon. The issue with the alpha transparency is apparent on every avatar I view with the current RC viewer. And for once its not a graphics card/driver specific issue.
Second Life 1.23.0 (118378) Apr 24 2009 14:24:08 (Second Life Release Candidate):
My face suddenly shows freggles and hard red blushes on my cheeks that I have never seen before. If this is an improvement or not is debatable ofcourse. Fact is, things like make-up noticably changed for sure. (Update: It turned out I was able to change the freggles and reddish color in Appearance). But worse is, that there are situations parts of my avatar become invisible. I have had this in several occasions already. Like while changing (taking off) clothes for instance. A manual character rebake usually solves it again. I will upload an example (Invisible body Lisa Lowe.jpeg). guys guys guys -
before we all get too excited (heh) let's remember that the RC process is BETA software. it will contain bugs. we will fix those bugs before it gets to release. that's the whole point, right? if you don't like the bugs, don't run the RC. it's as simple as that. Qarl, while usually you would be absolutely correct I have found that once you use the RC Viewer the skin problem then transfers over to the Main Viewer.
It's a baking error, so once you're back to the 1.22 viewer, simply rebake. Everything will be back to normal.
You can rebake by entering and exiting "edit appearance" mode. Dancien - i'm pretty sure that if you modify your appearance (back in the main viewer) things will return to normal... no?
Indeed, Dancien, that is somewhat expected — once the avatar texture is "baked" by a viewer, I can imagine it gets saved to the cache, and thus, unless you change your outfit, the Main viewer will still display your previously baked avatar texture for a while — until you either change your outfit, or, well, delete the cache...
@Nyx, thanks for looking not only into this issue, but considering new improvements on how texture layers will be applied to the avatar. I'm looking forward to the ability to wear any piece of clothing on any layer, no matter what the original creator intended @Qarl, I guess that the major fear is that what started as a "feature" and was found actually to be a "serious bug breaking millions of US$ in content" (literally so), becomes a regular feature "just because LL can make it so" (see ToS regarding the ability of LL to change everything without prior notice — and without any regard to financial loss caused by those changes — so we residents can't really "complain", we've signed up to agree with any changes you guys implement). So, Nyx's assurance that this WILL be fixed and NOT become a "feature" was important for us. I also agree with @bitova that it might be better to just remove the link to RC0, which is pretty much worthless to "test" when it's quite clear that nobody is using it to test it with the Linden rubber-skin avatars any more rebaking does fix it after you go back to the regular viewer. i know this from experience. it just sorta stays with you when you go back to the regular viewer because of the reasons stated above. but the rebake will make it go back to normal.
After furter testing I noticed more weird behaviour now.
I did a Advanced Character Test, both Male and Female. At first it starts changing the avatar as supposed, but quickly after it looks like images Character Tests Male.jpg and Character Tests Female.jpg (I combined a before and after manual rebake shots). Returning back into my normal skin first showed my body and face partially transparant. After applying a tattoo on my back, the body returned normal again. But the face never updates/rebakes anymore. Finally doing a manual rebake, restores everything to normal (except for the area's around the eyes, that is). I added image Partial invisible.jpg as an example of my disappeared face. Next to a layer change, introducing color/rendering problems, it appears to me there is also a automatic rebake (transparancy) problem now. From what i understand, this layering thing is a "feature" and not a bug. This was a design flaw from the beginning and since its been years, all those no mod skins will require updating. LOOL! Now that after all these years, LL wants to change the layering order, what does this possibly mean? Maybe they are working on something WORTH improving cough SERIOUS AVATAR BODY OVERHAUL?!?!? cough probably not. It is interesting walking around with a big old eyebrows poking through the skin. I really like my skin and would hate to go and find another one just because of this. Would just really really love a fix
/ Now let my see if I understand the issue here....
Most problems seem to be related to expensive no-mod skins, while there are less problems with the cheaper or free mod-skins??? I seem to have no major issues with the free mod skin I mainly use, and the new feature allowing me finally to actually change some of the appearance I was not able to do before, so that is a step forward. And I like it. If people made a lot of money with creating skins that are no Mod, they will have to realize that is standard business practise ANYWHERE in IT that when creating content, there is always a risk of future incompatibility, whether we talk about linden lab products or any other piece of IT-ware out there. Content providers will also have to realize their responsibility up upgrade and provide maintainance on what they sell. or reduce pricing and sell ass is, so we all know what we are paying for and accept the risks of future interoperability. Let's not blame all this on the Lindens, that is too easy, and would be the same as slagging them off for not being able to run SL properly anymore on a 256Mb memory PIII running XP or windows ME.... In the end we are playing around here with a piece of software, and show me one bug free hassle free piece of software of a decent level of complexity.... I don't understand how anyone could have thought this was a good idea unless they never actually used SL at all.
Eyebrows are controlled on the linden hair all avatars have to wear. Usually it is called bald. If you do not have a mod bald hair thing then make one using a full transparent texture. Then set the eyebrows to zero. Who knows you might like to change your appearance with the other eyebrow sliders after you get rid of the cro magnon styler.
Seems to me skin makers need to be including the bald hair thing with skins. Some do. I dont see how anyone can call this issue resolved. I have rolled out of the RC viewer and back to the standard viewer even then I must disable palletized textures and rebake several times to make any skins expensive of cheap apear corretly.
This is how my eyelashes look after using RC0. The same problem occurs in the Windows or Mac OS version of the RC0. It is somewhat annoying to look like I am wearing mascara and changing skin would not help because the eyelashes are SL default.
The other problem I am experiencing is the disappearance of the soles of my shoes because they have an alpha channel texture. I hope this will be fixed soon and still I am wondering why someone at LL decided to change the layers' order without testing thoroughly first and consulting with people who design skins and attachments. Sandor I had the same problem as show in photograph #8 with the huge eyebrows as well as eyelashes and eye liner looking thick. I got a partial fix with the eyebrows by putting on a skin that was modifiable, going to appearance.... that menu changed too...
 ..... and turning all eye choices to 0 (zero). However, it did not work with the eye lashes or eye liner, and the skin that I wear is not modifiable. Of course there will be bugs only, don't play around with a woman's appearance!!! Geesh. Looking VERY forward to the fix. To clarify:
This issue is just about the appearance of eyebrows and makeup over the skin layer. We're currently testing a fix for this issue for RC1. This issue is NOT:
I'll update the description with links to relevant JIRA issues for these related issues later today. Well, I think anybody that agrees to do this with our skins, if they have to upgrade, do so, but without breaking our skins
Well, add me to the folks switching back to 1.22 until there's a fix, for the make-up and eyebrows, and as soon as the link is posted, the eyelashes (I have that issue as well).
Too bad - I've always enjoyed using the latest RC. puff ! it ll destroy mostly skins in sl , mostly of the skins are no mod and expensive if you "fixed" this what we gonna do with this skins? you gonna repay us the value of them? are you crazy?
i hope that u fixed this in a better way dont screw up our skins @Qarl Linden, I agree that we expect to find bugs in release candidates, and help you and ourselves by reporting them. But I sort of expect that successive RCs are converging towards the next release. I also expect them to be good enough for me to use for everything so that I can test them all the time and find problems. What I (and others I have spoken to) are amazed by is that this very serious issue can be seen within a minute of logging in with this RC, and is severe enough that we switch back to the previous RC, so you don't get your testing. How did it happen? And how a similar thing be prevented in future?
And I am very in favour of improvements in flexibility of avatar compositing! (And please allow me 100% transparent eyes while you are doing it, thanks.) I'm upset, who is going to pay for a new skin for me since I saved up and paid thousands of lindens for, which now is ruined because of the new viewer? Had to get a freebie skin for right now which looks bad. I'm so upset about this!!!
( This is not acceptable, beyond the technical matters are the rights of the users and the money that we have invested in SL. I do not agree. Changes must be done to improve never to harm. LL must revert this decision
no me parece bien la modificación que piensa hacer second life
I could make a list of many names that have commented on this issue that have added nothing but a personal rant to the jira. Can't you people read? Some of you are still whining as if you haven't read any of the preceding posts. This is a technical jira, to treat it like a blog to vent your frustration is abuse in my opinion. I know I am wasting my time writing this. If you don't read and understand the Linden posts on what they are doing regarding this issue then you certainly won't understand this one. READ whiners and trolls, they get it, they are working on it. And yes, I am sure someone will correctly note that this is a personal rant.
Updated the issue title to note that it will be fixed soon, as it seems many people are too upset to bother reading the description or comments. Also bolded Nyx's additions to the description to hopefully make them stand out more so people will see them. I'm also going to re-resolve as Fix Pending.
*sprays some anti-drama spray around the room, too, though LL should have seen it coming.* what about a new avatar mesh while you are at it (a linden told me 2 years ago there will be one soon and this current one is a joke)
double poly count at least and create a smarter uv map with less and smarter seams, also the deformers and morphs are veeeeery outdated, allow us custom morphs too! ty for reading, i know you wont do anything about it within the next 2 years though some of the linden answers here just showed me that you still think the avatar is good enough /cry I've attached a picture with my eyelashes and eyebrows. The eyelashes I've posted to
Second Life 1.23.0 (118378) Apr 24 2009 14:24:08 (Second Life Release Candidate) Built with MSVC version 1400 CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2399 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 For what it is worth. I always use a modifyable skin and with this 1.23.0 release I suddenly had freggles, blushes and my eyelashes looked just as weird as in the examples. The freggles and blushes where easily solved in appearance. While switching back and forth between 1.22 and 1.23 I and trying different skins, I noticed my eyelashes could be restored to normal again by turning up the Pigment (under skin>skincolor). In my case this has no effect on the rest of my skin. However, wearing non-modifyable skins, this is no option.
The layer switching and resulting bakingorder change has some nice advantages. Only having the skin color pigment affect eyelashes doesn't appear to be correct in my humle option. Besides that, selling modifyable, no-transfer skins could have prevented a lot of anger amongs customers. I think from now on they would have been able to edit their make-up (partially) and maybe skin color also. But, this is only a test viewer so far, not the regular one. Return to 1.22 if it's a problem and re-apply skins or rebake and most should be fine again. The original layer orderwas the best. While not self consistent for all body areas, it worked for everyone. Please restore the original order.
this continues to happen no matter which viewer I am using. Am using Second Life 1.22.11 (113941) Mar 6 2009 12:50:02 (Second Life Release) and the skin rendering issues continues. Noticed it first with the new RC viewer 1.23, swtiched back to RC 1.22 and the issues with lips and eye lids continue to render incorrectly. Screen pic added.
System details: Second Life 1.22.11 (113941) Mar 6 2009 12:50:02 (Second Life Release) You are at 250846.5, 313490.8, 21.7 in Dahlia Island located at sim3633.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.22.114:12035) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (1794 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.16.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7c zlib/1.2.3 see comments above added to issue.
Picture shows Skin rendering continues in viewer Second Life 1.22.11 (113941) Mar 6 2009 12:50:02 (Second Life Release) re: problem persisting in 1.22
Not exactly, in my experience. I have three separate X2 skins, and a number of variations on each. When this problem first cropped up, in 1.23, I tried wearing most variations of all three skins and they all had the "fat lips, screwy eyelids" problem. When I went back to 1.22, ONLY THE VARIATIONS THAT I HAD PREVIOUSLY OPENED with 1.23 were still screwed up. So on my favorite skin, I now have to use the shaved variation rather than the soulpatch variation. Reason: I had opened the soulpatch variation with 1.23, but NOT the shaved variation. That variation had never been worn with 1.23. Sadly, many many others were tried. I hope that skins previously opened under 1.23 will be ok once the fix is in place, but I'm not counting on it. If they are not, this is one huge FAIL by the Lindens and whoever brought it on should be held accountable. You just don't miss this kind of thing. Period. No excuses. @ NickCa and those who feel addressed by it.
It has been said a few times before, but since many I not reading the whole thread I will add my 2 cents again. This is not a final version we are testing, it is a pre-relase for those who like to participate in helping to improve the quality of the software! As this software is currently under acceptance testing, there are bound to be errors and issues not overseen during the development phase. This is EXACTLY why such tests are carried out and have nothing to do with failures or accountability. When participating in testing, there are no full guarantees. Participating is at your own risk and there will always a possibility of data loss, data corruption or likewise. If you cannot deal with such losses or risks, do NOT participate in testing but wait till the final release. This is I guess a learning experience for many, like never to test with your favorite skins, objects or or other data that you either did not make a back off or cannot be backed up, as you always have a risk of corrupting or loosing it. This is standard procedure for all kind of software, no matter if you are testing a viewer, a word processor or anything else. As software is maturing over time, introductions of new features will get more and more impact on existing features, bugs and less desirable quality issues.... until it reaches a point where you have to do too many concessions to make to reach an acceptable quality level. By that time, a complete redesign of the platform and core software is required, but than you can be sure there will be even more backwards compatibility issues.... So test when you are aware of the possibile risks and add your findings that help the developers to improve the software, stop cluttering the jira with endless repeats and simply rude comments. This only makes the threat harder to follow, filling up mailboxes of testers with more clutter and keeping the developers from their real work which is improving the software, instead of having to follow every comment made on here... and it only ensures loosing oversight. If you do not want to take the risk, just follow the forums, and vote where you think you agree to a certain feature request or bug fix priority and stay with the latest full release in the meantime and enjoy SL till the next final release. Whoa there. Nothing is ruined.
The easiest way to return a skin to its pre-1.23 appearance is to wear it in 1.22 and rebake, and wait however long it takes for all the avatar textures to fully re-rez. As a matter of fact, once the skin has been rebaked in 1.22, you can continue to wear it in 1.23 until something causes it to rebake in that version--but then it will get "that RC look" until you go back to 1.22 and rebake again. (That's not practical as a workaround or anything; just mentioned to give an idea of what's going on, and why the skins aren't really ruined by going through the 1.23 experience.) For anyone having trouble with their appearance getting "stuck" in the sense that errors with the 1.23 client show up even when running 1.22 - These problems can be fixed by forcing a rebake of your avatar's textures under 1.22. In order to do this:
1) log in to Second life with the 1.22 client Another way to force a rebake of your avatar is through the advanced menu (Advanced > Character > force rebake, or ctrl-alt-r if you have the advanced menu enabled). The bug listed here does NOT cause any permanent or lasting changes to in-world content. If you are noticing that your appearance is still showing these artifacts even when logging in with the 1.22 client, it is because the appearance is cached. Your skins have not been permanently modified and will return to their normal appearance after forcing a rebake on a client that does not have the issue. another option on a PC is
1)log in to SL using the 1.22 client/viewer This should also force a "rebake" and don't use the RC or the PN until this issue is resolved, i know it's been said 1000 times before, the RC's and the PN's are BETA not the final client/viewer, so they crash and can make you look like a dork so the dev's know what needs fixing. and because they are so buggy i use basic alt accounts with clothes and attachments that if they are lost or messed up no big deal, i won't have lost anything that matters to me, i just don't use that account again 'till there is a workaround or a fix, lindens have tester accounts they can use, so it's kinda the same thing. Thanks Qie and nyx. I will work on rebaking in 1.22
And unconventional Ashdene, if you have any official association with Linden Labs, you should be fired for putting such trash on the JIRA forum. MY BAD? I don't think so. An RC is supposed to be a BETA test as my understanding goes. If you are alpha testing (and this sure was) it should be done by salaried LInden employees who have a little bit of sense about them. When they are finished, this kind of thing should be picked up EARLY on a PREVIEW GRID by people who are not playing with their real inventory. Only after that vetting should it go out for beta as an RC. Accordingly, I heartily object to your defense of the incompetents who foisted this on a good faith beta testing community. You should make clear whether or not you are speaking for Linden Labs. If you are, I bet there is a CEO who would be interested to hear what you are saying. at the risk of enflaming the situation more - i'm just going to throw my 2c in.
NickCA - your skins have not been permanently damaged. as has been said many times before - if you return to 1.22 and open the appearance editor, everything will go back to normal. using this trick, you can also return to 1.23 and avoid the appearance editor there, and everything will be fine. regarding alpha vs. beta - i have to disagree - this is exactly the kind of bug you can expect to find in an RC0 release. if you feel that's unacceptable, i recommend you avoid RC0s and go with RC1s or 2s or 3s (each iteration is a refinement on the last.) Qarl: Based on my experience with other messed up baked textures... just going to appearance editor does not seem to reliably rebake textures, neither does just rebaking. Either modifying a wearable or using Advanced->Character->Rebake while in appearance editor does the trick.
I too have noticed the behavior Argent Stonecutter describes. I'm thinking in particular of an issue a while back with skirt-layer wearables in one of the RC clients (I'm sorry I can't be more specific). At that time it was necessary to modify the wearable (i.e., change the skirt's length or some other attribute) and then save it. You could then mod it back to its original state and then save it again. This seemed to force the texture rebake properly when nothing else would do so. If this is what is necessary here, that's going to be impossible for no-mod skins, of which there are...a lot.
Would clearing the cache help in this case, to get rid of the cached texture? Well, I just checked this in 1.23 RC1, and the makeup layering issue seems fixed. Still having issues with the entire BODY vanishing, as shown in the "Character Test" pics above. But the "Clown makeup" and "Clumpy eyelashes" are gone now.
Did a fix make RC1 .. I looked through the release notes and could not see
I know its not normally done, however I'd suggest that due to the emotion / confusion created by the "original been there since day one "bug", which was fixed and exposed the "work around" by skin designers", it would be prudent for LL to explain in detail what the fix was/is they have folded into RC1 .
The latest RC does NOT fix the issue. The makeup problem and disappearing body are still with us. . The makeup issue should be fixed in RC1 - if you are still seeing issues with makeup, you need to force a rebake of your avatar's textures either by opening the appearance editor and closing it or using the menu option Advanced > Character > Rebake Textures.
The issue was in the ordering of the layers that was changed in avatar_lad.xml. This change has been reverted, so any newly baked skins should not have the problem. If you continue to have issues after forcing a rebake, clear your cache, change outfits, and force a rebake. For those of you having issues with invisibility, please direct your comments to VWR-12906. There is a known issue where parts of the avatar can become transparent until the textures bake properly. Be certain that you are running second life on your primary monitor, and force a texture rebake. Give it a couple of minutes and if you are still seeing invisible avatar parts, give us as much information as you can on what exactly you can do to recreate the problem. There is a fix pending for the temporary invisibility bug that should make it into RC2, but any additional data on these issues would be greatly appreciated. All the steps you suggested have been taken and the fix did not work .... the skin is still messed up. After clearing cache rebaking and changing skins rebaking again the same results
I cannot believe that they would actually do this, people have ideas everyday and I cannot believe that LL would do such a thing to the general population. Skins are the fabric of our character*no pun intended* I doubt they are ready for a huge war that would follow them far longer than that changed password fiasco a couple years ago. I can see it now all residents at the gates with torches and pitch forks,and the newbies without a clue.
The residents are hailing and wailing with all the adverse idiotic decisions that serves only LL and the now corporate gods that get all at 50% what us po' folk pay and no to mention we helped build this place. How much more can people take I have no clue but all I hear lately is unrest from residents. Having been here nearly from the beginning I am dismayed at the inability to make things better for residents. I never thought I say it but I am really getting discouraged here in SL, I no longer log in with the fervor I once had perhaps itis time for a change and I don't mean one like Obama I mean the real deal. The was only a bug in 1.23 RC0. The very next release (RC1) already fixed the bug. Consider this bug CLOSED.
I already knew about the bug but I did not have the time to react yet, I am currently on 1.23.3 (testing for Dutch Language) and I noticed this bug during change of clothes. The shape, skin and tattoo are the same as in several other avi's I have. So should not get this type of problem for that matter. It gets fixed by going briefly to appearance mode. I asked Soft Linden what he wanted me to do with this and he asked me to place it on the JIRA.
INFORMATION: Second Life 1.23.3 (121118) May 20 2009 15:45:07 (Second Life Public Nightly) Built with MSVC version 1400 U bent op 258845.8, 250305.8, 27.0 in Localization Central located at sim7509.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.35.2:13001) CPU: Intel Core 2 Series Processor (2671 MHz) libcurl Version: libcurl/7.18.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3 ----------------------- Youri - the bug should be fixed in 1.23.1 and above - the fact that your appearance looks correct in appearance editing mode should indicate this. It sounds like your appearance with those avatars/outfits is cached and is being used. Please try clearing your cache and forcing a rebake of your avatar for each affected outfit.
Thanks! @nyx Linden
Sorry nyx, but this is a clean install and cache has been cleared. That is why I added it. @Youri - Interesting. It looks like the server may be caching it as well. Either way the same solution should work (aka going once into appearance edit mode for each affected outfit or otherwise rebaking). Thanks for the info!
@BigPapi Linden:
could be the problem indeed, since it gets fixed by just a second in appearance mode. And no problem! glad that this is found before 1.23.3 goes public! Alas they fixed it for a few but my partner who followed all the steps the all powerful lindens recommended still has a whole series of expensive skins that she can't use because of this issue. It may have worked for a few but not all. Eventually though they will get it right ... only took them 4 months to fix the shirt layer with some avatars last time... so don't give up hope
Everyone seems to miss a few important points here:
A) This is still being worked on, it's not a final version that will affect everyone - it's a RELEASE CANDIDATE, which means there WILL be glitches - that's why the word CANDIDATE is used, there is a needed period of testing and reporting to do before it's ready for RELEASE as an Official Main Viewer. B) The skins issue itself is ALSO being worked on, and not finished. This isn't something that's been carved in stone, as is, and we have to squeal about a bunch of "broken skins" - it's still on the lab table being developed! C) Less panic, more learning! ...yeesh! I'm using the Second Life 1.22.11 (113941) and have had absolutely NO problems of this sort! So it's not the servers. If I were using a RC viewer, I'd simply await the next RC and try that, using the OFFICIAL release in the meantime and sailing along smoothly. I am using 1.23.4 and im still getting these issues....which means my skins are unsaleable.....i've tried all the suggestions but even when i use an older client i still get them
@Nixie - If you are having this issue with an older client then it is a different issue. Please open up a new JIRA with snapshots.
Thanks Ok thank you will open a new issue
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Bug
Resolved
Critical
Skins with alpha bake make up much more opaquely than before - WILL BE FIXED SOON!
It also affects the system-eyebrows, which are part of the system-hair.