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Homer Horwitz - 01/Oct/07 02:43 PM
I agree, several of my products stopped working after the rolling restart on Oktober 1st.
Ditto, all our furniture products are now broken. What ever you did, put it back, you just killed our business!
I understand why they broke it, as some people were using it to crash sims... however, the majority of us had legitimate uses for it.
Seriously, prevent the use of PRIM_TYPE with an avatar, but don't kill the whole function! "I understand why they broke it"
so, they kill something that is useful and used in people products with NO WARNING? Bovine Stuff, I don't understand at all, this has ruined our business. It broke the 'En Garde' game that was just released yesterday, and a lot of people bought for 3000L.. o.o Also my multi-sit chairs and other stuff I made using this feature no longer work. This needs to be reverted asap, I think.
It's every content creator's worst nightmare. You spend four months working on a project, and Linden Lab breaks it the day after release.
I doubt they will fix this. I have other issues here that have sat for months without action. I will try to code a workaround; in the meantime, if anyone who purchased En Garde wants a refund please IM Rifkin Habsburg. I agree, this was an extremely useful thing to have. I've been using it for months in a product that was pretty close to release.
It's a bit insane that they would remove functionality like this. Did they even give a reason? Did it pose some kinda security threat? Now a bunch of scripters, me included are going to have to deal with a bunch of complaints on our products and we are going to lose credibility. Thanks again Lindens for messing things up
Lets hope this is a stopgap measure while they fix whatever exploit it enabled.
My furniture business which makes no-poseball furnishings now has 0% functionality in its products. My bar, which uses scripts with this function for no-pose-ball barstools and a dozen other things now has no functional barstools, no functional bar for the bartender to work at, no couches for people to sit and relax at. This must be restored, we've been setting up a whole furniture business on scripts we had developed with this function! Please, for the love of god...
Brilliant. LL just broke content all over the grid, and I can stuff my multipose chairs and sofas where my hair and shoes tend to go after a tp anyway I guess.
I had a conversation with the Linden who made this change a couple weeks ago. He mentioned the change and I told him it was a bad idea, that it would break content. He was unmoved by my suggestions to either just disable the bugged flag or only enable PRIM_POSITION and PRIM_ROTATION.
@LL I told you so. And you wonder why people say LL is bad at communicating? This could have been avoided by posting in the Scripting Tips forum. This could have been avoided by posting on the Scripting mailing list. This could have been avoided by posting on the wiki. This could have been avoided by posting on here on PJIRA. Some free advice: Use the myriad of communication methods at your disposal to communicate with the public. A small 10 minute investment could have improved your image with the community instead of further sully it. I'm sending a bill for $L5,000 to LL to pay for all my new furniture that doesn't work anymore.
I've found the change that caused this change, and I'm experimenting with a work around.
There's no plan for this to be permanent, and I'm asking for this functionality to be added to the test plan for future releases. (I'm bothered too - it broke some of my furniture!) Strife - selectively enabling position and rotation for an agent in a link set is exactly what I'm aiming to do here.
Do me a favor and raise the issue on sldev or in the Monday bug triage if something like that comes up again. We want to safeguard existing content, and making sure multiple Lindens saw that would have prevented this. The Linden you spoke to must not have known that this was such a widely-used hack. Soft Linden -
"I'm asking for this functionality to be added to the test plan for future releases." How about future being IMMEDIATELY? My business has taken a major hit and I've got people clammering for a refurnds! It's gonna be bad enough it if we have to go out and replace everything with a hacked script, how about just PUTTING IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS till a better fix can be written and TESTED THIS TIME?! I'm looking at losing upwards of L$30,000 if this is not resolved QUICKLY. Please, PLEASE restore this!
You've just torpedoed a 20000L product my partner and I released a couple of weeks ago! The vendors are not the only ones effected, by this change. The Sim owners now have to try to put out brush fires of complaints and face the blaze of the firing squad from visiting residents, volunteers that help manange the Island, as well as some even answer to sponsors.
There are many that give long hours to create an event to bring others into this program, and are also effected by LL's hastily reactive approach to bar a problem area. As with all situations, the ones that are effected and punished are the ones that probably are not using it inappropriately. Those greifers have now moved on to the another situation, still uneffected or reprimanded. I can say that the items purchased for our event are now going to stay in our inventory come event day and our event will be basically *Uneventful*. Not only do LL have their reputation on the line when these things occur. They force ALL to the front line to receive a blow in that regard, as well. Its hit me hard as well completely breaking some of my best selling items. LOTS of customers effected.
"The Linden you spoke to must not have known that this was such a widely-used hack."
Maybe Lindens should play their own game a little more often. Does anyone actually test these bug fixes on the beta grid or some secret grid somewhere? If not, you guys might want to think about doing that. Could save you some time and PR headaches! Soft Linden -- thanks for your interest in this item.
However, I take offense at your statement that this is a "hack". IF LL DOCUMENTED THEIR FUNCTIONS, and if this was a use of an undocumented feature, THEN, you might be able to call it a hack. However, LL does NOT document the intended behavior of their functions. Instead, they leave it to the community to *discover* the *apparent intent* of the functions and document them. Thus, WHATEVER A FUNCTION DOES is it's definition. This is LL's fault. This is NOT a hack. We're only doing here what we're FORCED to do for all LL functions: discover what they SEEM to do, and take it for granted that it's intended! Whoever is in charge of LSL documentation at LL should be deeply embarrassed. They deserve ridicule. The documentation of LSL functions is insufficient even for INTERNAL documentation, and is laughable for a customer-accessible interface. It looks like they found someone incompetent and gave them the documentation job because nobody else wanted to do it. (Thus the Wiki was born, and the rest is history.) Thi is in my opinion as a software engineer for 30 years, including over a decade being senior architect for middleware, where API documentation is crucial. SL is excellent and shows a lot of hard work and good judgement on a lot of very tricky technical issues. The LSL documentation is way, way, way below that level. Sorry for the rant, but you have no basis on which to call API use "hacking" unless you have a well-defined API. It's not *your* fault that LSL is not documented, but since LL took this path, they're stuck with the consequence: they can NOT ever say that we're misusing the API unless it's for an obvious griefing attempt. (Note: I'm using the old meaning of the word "hack", meaning diddling with software to get an intended result without regard for good software structure, rather than the newer meaning of circumventing security mechanisms. My use is consistent with Soft Linden's, above.) Yet once again, i cannot believe that LL has broken a major script that builders use. And once again i believe it wont be fixed before yet another new feature will be brought in :( As a builder myself, i know how long and how much work builders put into their products to have it just taken away with no warning....
Greetings good afternoon its October 2nd around 10am SL time. If I may make a respectful request that Lindens please resolve this huge issue it is costing me both as a a maker of items and a customer of wonderful talented friends like Eladon Galsworthy who makes the best dining menu furniture I have ever seen in SL. And I am in the middle of planning a huge SL wedding which My future husband Deathstalker purchased a sim next to Mine for our blissful wedding event and all our wedding furniture now does not work and we have guests from all over planning to attend this glorious artistic endeavor as well as special day. Not only did Deathstalker's sim disappear with Wedding Cathedral so did every piece of furniture on both sims yeseterday BREAK. We are reasonable and easy going people * well He is * I am the more passionate one(smiles) But for the Love of the Bride I really would appreaciate being able to come down the aisle in glorious beauty with all My wonderfully, talented family and friends and Lindens around Me.
Would You please fix this My wedding is this month and the Bride is getting a bit concerned. Love and Blessings Charltina Christensen P.S Your Concierge team is still the best. Thanks so much for the assistance yesterday and today. Please fix this ASAP I really do not want to send you my wedding bill for all the broken items * winks* Thanks and have a winning day As an creator and owner toghether with Eladon Galsworthy of Pondlife.
1½ Year of hard hard work is now GONE its devestating for us so many hours spent in no use. I hope you try to anderstand that many hardworking, serious creators/desiners has thir work and bussiness spoiled. please fix this problem Lear - let's be clear - this IS a hack. a "prim linkset" is a well defined term in the SL universe - and prim linksets never include avatars.
It's also a hack because it relies on accessing an item in the linked set that's off the end of the list. The extent that's being violated has been in the LSL wiki forever. Nevertheless it's the only way to reposition an agent that's seated and it's widely used, so we'll want to preserve it.
I've fixed this, am testing it now, and we hope to roll the fix out soon. Please help me thank dibbs Dovgal, Esmee Isbell, Silicon Plunkett, and Strife Onizuka for providing useful comments. Good to hear it will be re-implemented (re-hacked?). And yes, thanks to those LL is willing to listen to for getting involved.
Qarl: "and prim linksets never include avatars."
Why then does llGetNumberOfPrims() include the number of sitting avatars? Why then does an avatar sitting or standing generate a CHANGED_LINK event? With all due respect, you can't say something like "prim linksets never include avatars" when LSL has behaved until today exactly as if they do. Your statement may reflect an intent, but it certainly does not reflect the reality of SecondLife's behavior that we have all had time to become accustomed to. And once more I will ask for a group of busines owners to be involved into software releases (serverside) before they are introduced to the whole grid.
And once more it will be ignored because the Lindens who read the JIRA are not really interested in supporting the SL economy and the Lindens who might be interested, don't read the JIRA/their own blog/their wiki/you_name_a_LL_medium_of_your_own_choice. Oh and thanks to DanielFox for showing Qarl and Soft how little they know about their own platform. Juliet I'm sure Qarl knows immeasurably more about SL then I could ever hope to. He just may not see it from a user's perspective. I know we are all frustrated about this change but we've heard they plan to fix it and thats great - although I agree that this change was handled poorly, we should try to remain civil with Qarl and Soft as they are listening to us.
Look, I stopped being civil when I found out that it doesn't matter if you're civil or not. You're getting ignored anyway.
I prolly shouldn't be posting here anywy but I think there are a few things that have to be said, no matter if the Lindens are listening or not. The problem here is, that Qarl and Soft actually have the nerve to argue, if this was a hack or not after there are dozens of content creators complaining that this breaks about 80% of all high quality furniture at the moment (I knew few high quality furniture designers who are still using poseballs). The problem here is - LL might be almighty when it comes to giving us features/functions or not, but they are not almighty when it comes to taking them from us again. I mean creators and designers are the backbone of SL. If content designers have to leave because LLs latest actions break their products and businesses, then LL takes a pretty hard hit. Stuff like this gets passed on and word of mouth can be deadly in the information age. So if a function is used by a mayority of uses in SL, you can't just take it away again, and it automatically stops being a "hack" as in "ok, you shouldn't have been using this anyway so you can't complain when we take it from you". Because that's what Qarl and Soft wanted to express when they said that this was a hack - "don't blame us, YOU're the ones who used this hack when you shouldn't have". I think it's understandable to defend ones actions and from a programmers standpoint, Qarl and Soft might even be right. But this is a _public_ jira and it gets read by a lot of people who are not programmers, who might be really angry at LL (once more) and this stuff stays on the web forever. And Lindens (sorry, please excuse my language) bitching about who is to blame in the comments here just doesn't make things better. Jules (who really tried to be civil) Thank you thank you thank you Soft! I am so pleased that you attacked this so quickly, and I look forward to seeing the fix back onto the grid so that we can continue to develop great product for SL and it's residents
DanielFox - hmmm. but doesn't the name "llGetNumberOfPrims" suggest to you that something is askew if it returns the avatar as well? (nevermind that the wiki documents this as a "caveat".) i mean, honestly, you had NO inkling that something was fishy here?
Juliet - i'm sorry you're angry - but yes, this is a hack. regarding your proposal about business owners and serverside releases: you're aware that we release our server code to the preview grid before we release it to the main grid, right? so in fact, EVERYONE can test their products before a release. my understanding is that we broke this policy for this release, because of the conflict with the havok branch. that was a mistake, and we regret it. going forward, our nearly completed het-grid project will allow sim owners to pick and choose when to upgrade their sim - which should alleviate nearly all of this problem - early adopting sims will warn you of product failure before the entire grid updates. This is going into testing internally, and will appear as a rolling restart once it passes.
look - Qarl has said it was a mistake that they regret. Soft has as quickly as possible come up with a fix - let's all be happy that this has been addressed.
Mistakes happen - if they would all be addressed and resolved this quickly, SLife would be alot better. I know people get upset about this kind of thing.. but think about it, the community is to blame not Linden labs.. Scripters take incidental and undocumented side-effects of functions like llSetLinkPrimitiveParams and then use them in commercial products?? STUPID! Then they are surprised - SURPRISED! when they lose their made-up "functions".
Be smart instead, don't hack up nonsense functionality using code exploits and third party BS. If you want more functionality ask Linden for it! Otherwise you have no real or legitimate leg to stand on when Linden randomly exorcises your pretty little contrivance as part of a routine debugging of the infrastructure. Let's face it, there are plenty of valid issues to whine about, acting like a dumbass however isn't one of them. p.s. I think it's just plain lucky that Linden didn't ignore this issue.. they certainly don't own you people a fix Even if it is "officially" a hack - if it is being widely used (and has been), it should not be treated as such. I would imagine that at some point a hack becomes a feature. ;)
I am not sure where Neotoy is coming from. LSL is note really documented. There are very small definitions, and certainly not formal documentation as I expect to see. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bug
Resolved
Critical
Avatar sitting on a prim no longer able to be manipulated with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams
