• All submissions to this site are governed by Second Life Project Contribution Agreement. By submitting patches and other information using this site, you acknowledge that you have read, understood, and agreed to those terms.
Issue Details (XML | Word | Printable)

Key: SVC-2736
Type: Meta Issue Meta Issue
Status: Open Open
Priority: Major Major
Assignee: Unassigned
Reporter: WarKirby Magojiro
Votes: 81
Watchers: 14
Operations

If you were logged in you would be able to see more operations.
2. Second Life Service - SVC

The Windlight Project is unfinished.

Created: 02/Aug/08 11:17 AM   Updated: 15/Sep/09 08:22 PM
Return to search
Component/s: Simulation
Affects Version/s: 1.23.4 Server, 1.27 Server
Fix Version/s: None

Issue Links:
Relates


 Description  « Hide
We've had windlight for a few months now, or so it seems. It's neat to be able to turn the sky green, and the oceans to blood. Of course, it's entirely useless, as only you can see it. And the system is so crippled that any actual useful application for it is nigh impossible.

There are three key features which windlight is missing. At least two of them, have actually been promised to us by LL, and not delivered. All of them have had Jira issues here for a while.

1. VWR-6543 - Ability to set a default setting.
The ability to set a default sky/water, so we don't have to constantly change them on EVERY....SINGLE...LOGIN. It is horribly frustrating to have to open that menu, and change the sky, every single time. So many just don't bother. Windlight doesn't enhance the SL experience. Because most people aren't experiencing it. Without the sustained effort of changing your settings every session, the environment editor is useless, and most people, myself included, are not willing to live with that annoyance. So we just became apathetic and settled for the default.

2. VWR-7677 - Estate control of visitor's windlight settings.
The second way in which windlight is so horribly crippled, is the complete lack of any shared experience. One of the primary applications of the ability to customise the sky and water, is to create unusual experiences. Alien worlds. Hell dimensions with burning skies. A creepy dark ambiance in a haunted sim. Anything you can come up with. But there is no way for the landowner to share this experience they create. If you want someone to see your sim the way you designed it to be seen, you have to put a sign up. And people have to take the effort to read it, and follow the instructions. And to prevent the amount of work and complexity from reaching unworkable levels, you generally have to settle for using one of the linden provided presets. Requiring people to play with sliders and adjust things for your sim will never work. We need a way to set default windlight settings which all visitors will be automatically set to. At least on private islands. Possibly on a per parcel basis too, even.

We were promised this would happen, and we are still waiting.

3. SVC-1068 - Tradeable Sky assets
Not everyone has the time or knowhow to make their own sky. Much like not all sim owners create their own furniture, or houses. So many store owners didn't create their own rental system, etc. One important strength of an economy is that people can help each other (and profit from doing so). But economic activity is completely impossible without the ability to transfer things of value.

There's potentially a nice market for content creation in custom skies. And hell, alot of people would even just love to share their sky settings for free. Have a shared experience among friends. But this is impossible. Sky settings currently only exist as xml files on your hard drive. The only way to share the skies you're experiencing, aside from creating a huge list of numbers, is to send each other the xml files outwith SL. This is really not workable. We really need new assets within SL for sky and water settings, that can be given and traded between residents. Even this would make problem 2 above much more manageable. If people could just give out a "recommended sky" asset to visitors, it could work mostly.

This, too, is something we have been promised numerous times. Now windlight is in the main client, with it's special codename taken away, and is accepted as the standard. We've waited for months. Linden Lab has come out with news about all sorts of things recently:
Havok 4
Mono
The huge 1.20 RC chain
interoperability with other grids
etc etc...

Nothing has been said about windlight for a long time. It seems to have been forgotten.

Please don't leave it in this broken, unfinished state.



 All   Comments   Change History      Sort Order: Ascending order - Click to sort in descending order
Lex Neva added a comment - 02/Aug/08 11:45 AM
#2 is a huge problem. Not only can we not ensure that our estates are seen as we intended them to be seen, our existing settings have been largely obliterated.

Here's what I mean by that: my group made a city in the Suffugium region. We had the estate sun set to a fixed time of day, chosen very precisely to give us exactly the ambient light level and color we wanted. We tinted every single prim and designed our textures specifically to match the estate sun setting and give a dull, orange glow to the city, as if it were lit by sodium street lights (those orange ones you see in big cities). We accept that we're going to have to carefully design a new set of windlight presets to match the ambience we had before, and we're excited by the possibilities this will allow us.

Right now, we're stuck with the default day cycle included with windlight viewers. With the same fixed sun setting we had before, the "time of day" is now interpreted in the default windlight day cycle, and it's totally the wrong color and light level. There's no setting that'll come close to matching what we had before. Until LL completes the Windlight project, we're stuck with our sim looking completely different from the way we built it, and there's really nothing we can do about it.


McCabe Maxsted added a comment - 04/Aug/08 09:13 AM
VWR-6543 has been on my wishlist for ages.

Alpha Vargas added a comment - 21/Aug/08 06:05 AM
I hope SOMEONE working for LL at least sees this. I really do.

I agree with you completely. I'd even say Windlight still has a beta-feature feel to it, being that it's local-machine/client dependent, and seemingly unintegrated with the rest of SL (in a way, it's just as useful as the "feature" of changing viewer skins. It makes it prettier based on your preferences alone, but no one else can see it, and it has absolutely no effect on the grid).

I could see those with computers/cards unable to support all, or even some, of the Windlight settings as being an issue. But here's my 2-cents on that:
It seems there are two systems for environments. The current, old system, and Windlight.
The old system is still the default.
Windlight exists seperately from this.
Switch and integrate. Make Windlight the default system, and the old system a fallback for users unable to render the Windlight settings of a particular area (additionally, but optionally: allow landowners to set a Windlight setting, AND an old system fallback setting to approximate the Windlight setting, so a beautiful starry mountaintop at night in Windlight could is seen at something like Midnight to someone who can't use Windlight settings, rather than Midday).

My #1 thing is being able to share/trade settings within SL. Sure, you can sell an xml file, but once you do, there's no way of stopping the person you sold it to from re-selling it, making it a freebie, or modifying you settings into something else and reselling that.


IAm Zabelin added a comment - 28/Aug/08 07:34 AM
Agree totally — WL is still just a massive unrealized potential. I NEVER go make WL changes anymore - just can't be bothered. The ONLY time I do it, and many others I suspect is when I want to take some photos.

Agree with Lex - #2 is the biggest as far as I'm concerned. Not being able to take advantage of the cool WL technology makes it a total waste. The fact that users can edit their WL setting is probably irrelevant - most users are and will always be clueless. It HAS to be handed over to content creators and artists - which operate at region/estate level to set these correctly.

In fact I'd go so far as to say the WL design and rollout was a total flop becasue of that ... LL should have implemented WL at Estate level FIRST ( with a simple - basic - client override), which would have brought the VALUE of WL to 10000x more users.

This type of rollout LL does is just nuts ... excellent technology EXTREMELY badly implemented, or not at all.

____________________________________
As per my post on another client-side Jira :

Common LL ... wrap this windlight thing up ... it's like half-implemented. Windlight is such a big thing its crazy to see it just hanging like this.

There should NOT be any popups when a user TP's to a new region with WL settings - that'll drive users nuts. At most a temp fading non-obtrusive message, or chat message, only IF client is set to not auto-accept server WL settings. I guess you could post a chat message if WL settings are changed to server with a 'click here' link to reset your previous ... kind-of like the message after TP you get and can TP back.

An additional client-side option should be avail to allow/prevent override of windlight settings when entering a server with WL settings (and the WL client should revert to its prev defaults when leaving).

Additionally, it'll be good to have a small colored panel-icon (sun+clouds or rainbow or something) ... like the small restrict push icons etc - to display when server settings are avail in your region and you have your local override on. By clicking the icon you can toggle between server and current client settings.

And can we have it on Monday please?

thx


Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 16/Feb/09 12:22 PM
Per-server settings are too coarse.

We need "materials", for per-object and per-avatar settings, and we need to be able to save and restore day cycles reliably - they're still blown away every time I update the client.


Geneko Nemeth added a comment - 21/Feb/09 01:42 PM
Materials would be cool, but it will probably mean slower rendering from more context switching.

Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 22/Feb/09 12:23 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "slower rendering from more context switching"? Do shiny/full bright/etc cause lag?

Geneko Nemeth added a comment - 23/Feb/09 09:31 AM - edited
From my understanding of Avatar Rendering Costs and other sources, they do, and also do textures and alpha, although the hit from breaking objects into batches are not as severe as other kinds of render workload (e.g. a bunch of polygons).

But since almost everything is Second Life is made with a different texture/shiny/alpha/etc setting anyway...

WindLight shaders, however, are different and I'm not sure if putting different parameters would mean drivers have to do extra work.


Argent Stonecutter added a comment - 24/Feb/09 04:56 AM
I wouldn't trust anything specific from ARC, since it's trivial to create an avatar that's got a huge ARC and doesn't lag even the slowest systems.

And shiny and full-bright are examples of materials. Why would (for example) a "low contrast" setting (similar to full-bright, but scaled to ambient light) cause more lag than full-bright itself?


CrystalShard Foo added a comment - 13/Aug/09 04:09 AM
This problem still exists as of 1.27.2.

Polaris Seelowe added a comment - 16/Aug/09 05:57 AM
In addition to mentioned comments, I seem to remember already back in 2007 LL spoke of giving more control.

like wheather (rain, snow etc.) All functionalities should be availabel to a sim owner, so it will be possible to create a collection of themed sims. If LL were to deliver as intended Sl would offer many new improved experiences.


Fred Rookstown added a comment - 15/Sep/09 08:22 PM
Should Nimble be added to this list? LL acquired Nimble volumetric clouds with Windlight, and I've seen no signs of implementation. I'm messing around with SilverLining, but would like to see even a half-implemented Nimble viewer just so I can gawk at the clouds for an hour.