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lightfox ludwig added a comment - 21/Dec/07 03:27 AM
I am sorry but I know alot of people who to this day love the linden damage system. we get 3 sims why do you want it gone. I mean come on now thats not far you don't like it so you want it gone???
@lightfox, you get a lot more than 3 sims, you get every parcel with damage set (heart appears in the top of the Viewer). I am voting for this as I tend to leave any parcel with damage enabled as soon as I notice the heart. This proposal means that if I walk into a sim I can only incur damage if I opt into it by wearing the combat HUD.
While I agree with the issue, I'm not sure about just plain removing it. Combat systems out there are fine, but the main issue is that there are no controls to restrict people's usage of weapons so that they can be forced into a fair-use system. I have no idea what an ideal solution would be, but we need something that allows scripted items or parcel restrictions to prevent people from using scripts which have an impact on combat, for example non-sanctioned shields and so-on.
For example, you could have signed scripts and a large suite of script restrictions that can be enabled (possibly on a per-sim basis rather than per-parcel). You would be able to limit what functions signed and unsigned scripts are able to perform, thus allowing users to continue having scripted avatars that change colour or such, but preventing them from using a weapon which is not compatible with your system (and thus an attempt at cheating). The idea would need refining, anyone with time to think about it more is welcome to take it and write a proposal. My main reasoning for it being sim-wide only is the amount of extra processing required when this is enabled. But basically my stance is that yes, Linden damage is rubbish, however combat systems are pretty rubbish too. The solution isn't to remove the worst system (Linden damage) without offering a superior system in its place. I'm not sure that the SL Damage system needs to be scrapped. I agree wholeheartedly that it is fairly useless and overly simplistic, and that the fact that any object can be scripted with llSetDamage(100); and thus cause an instant kill makes it rather ridiculous.
That being said, many SL military groups do use SL damage and have done so for a long time. The advantage is that it is a known quantity that applies equally to all groups. Unfortunately, the SL Damage system has numbers ways to cheat, but military groups themselves have adopted rules and treaties governing fair play (the extent to which they abide by these treaties, I do not know). I'm an admin at a privately-owned combat sim where we do not use SL Damage, but use our own health meters worn on the HUD. Personally, I find our system far superior to the SL Damage system. Autokill devices and the like simply won't work against our system, and we can set it so that the HUD will only accept damage in the combat zone, but not above it at the spawn points. We can decide what will and will not cause damage against the HUD, and can alter how much damage bullets will do. However, it is a private, proprietary system, and thus it would be unlikely that it would be used at any other combat sims (although other combat sims often use their own proprietary systems, or else use the widely popular DCS and CCS systems). That being said, the one reason that I can see for retiring the SL Damage system is because of the clauses in the ToS/CS that permit an "anything goes" atmosphere in any sim that is damage-enabled. This has allowed scripted objects whose functions are designed for griefing (such as distorting an avatar, forcing relogs, orbiting, knocking an avatar into the intersim void, breaking scripted attachments, or even just flat-out forcing the client to crash) to be openly sold as being designed for "SL Combat" because they are intended "only to be used in Combat Sandboxes." Well, thousands of people buy these products. Are there thousands of people who regularly frequent the three Rausch sims? Where do you suppose that these products tend to be used? Furthermore, even if when they are used in damage-enabled regions, does this make these actions acceptable? The damage system was originally intended with the idea that residents could know that if they saw a heart at the top of the screen, it meant that they might legitimately be shot and teleported home. Now it means that they might legitimately be orbited, knocked into the intersim void, hit with chat spam, map spam, dialog spam, have scripted objects broken, have their client deliberately crashed, etc...and all of that is perfectly legal, because it's a "combat zone." In my mind, the bigger question is not whether to eliminate the SL Damage system because it is obsolete and useless, but because of the liabilities that it creates within the ToS/CS and whether it legitimizes griefing and other unacceptable actions. i think that argument is not very well thought out. The Linden Combat Sandboxes clearly do have rules, just ask the griefers like "aLaa" who have been banned from SL after a year of griefing the combat sandbox. Oh you cant, because he was banned for griefing in the linden combat sandbox. Notably he wasnt using anything that you could buy in a shop either. Most hard core griefers make their own stuff or they get it from "that" website dedicated to destroying SL. Why would a griefer pay for a product when they KNOW they will be banned?
The fact is that there are people who like to use insanly overpowered weapons. Say hello to the BFG from Doom, Doom2, Quake, Quake2 etc etc.... The fact the lindens are wise enough to provide a place for people use use the BGF (WMD?) does not justify the production of such weapons, rather it justifies suspending people who use them in a non-combat enviroment. It is worth pointing out a second time in this post that hard core griefers do not spend L$ on weapons systems as they know they will get banned. The people who do spend L$ on weapons systems and use them to attack people outside of combat areas are in need of education. Of course it is hard to tell someone to file an abuse report when we know the majority of abuse reports do not fix the problem as the griefer will be back the next day under a new name. Darling. My larger point was that a major problem with Linden Damage is that it encourages the use of the functions that I mentioned. By creating areas in which they can be used semi-legitimately, it creates an economic incentive towards their development for sale, as well as their production and distribution. Whether the end result is a hardcore griefer using tactics that others developed for "combat" products, or some script-kiddie buying those products is rather a moot point.
The other major point was that the original function of the SL Damage system, which was to allow individuals to have a system-supported method for engaging in effective combat, has become obsolete not only because of the problems Warkirby mentions, but because it seems as though many of the weapons intended for use in Damage-enabled "Combat Sandboxes" don't even appear to be intended to utilize the SL Damage system. If you don't believe me, walk into any weapons store in SL and you will see a large number of products advertised as being intended for use in these sandboxes, but which seem to emphasize their ability to orbit, break scripted attachments, force relogs, spam maps, dialogs, chat, etc, and in any number of ways make an individual's experience in SL extremely unpleasant. I am simply saying that any discussion of whether to retain the SL Damage system should also look at the fact that much of the weapons marketed for use in these areas doesn't seem to involve the SL Damage system. Just as Warkirby notes that many privately owned combat sims have opted to use resident-designed scripted combat systems such as DCS/CCS/Spellfire/SafeZone etc rather than using the SL Damage system, I am pointing out that many of the weapons designed and marketed for use in combat sandboxes that use the SL Damage system seem to be using attacks that do not utilize SL Damage at all. Since so many of the devices designed for (or at least marketed as being for use in) Damage-enabled combat sandboxes seem to be geared more towards forcing an avatar to relog or crash, rather than killing them and thus forcing them to be teleported home, I think that it's worth a look at whether the SL Damage system is really being used as intended. Quote "...a major problem with Linden Damage is that it encourages the use of the [other] functions that I mentioned..."
This is not a problem with the Linden Damage System that requires it to be removed or fixed. It is a social engineering problem. To define your problem more accuratly "you feel that some of the additional attack methods being included into combat systems, sold for use in damage combat areas, have no place in SL." You have also previously stated that the existance of the combat sandboxes makes it possible for creaters to sell these weapons that you do not approve of. Interestingly, you work for a privatly owned combat island that uses it's own simulated combat system. One has to wonder how much more bussiness you would get if all the damage land in SL was removed, and people were forced to use the "pay to play" combat islands like the one you are involved in. For those people who dont know, I own several regions that are also open to the public to use for FREE. With half of them using the linden damage system while the other half is not using any damage system. I pay for these regions selling a weapons system that can work in both damage and non-damage land. I would never come into the JIRA and suggest a key component being used by the DSC system should be removed from SL to improve my sales. I wish I could say the same of some other people posting there. Darling @Haravikk Mistral
Quote "...but the main issue is that there are no controls to restrict people's usage of weapons so that they can be forced into a fair-use system...." Jahar and I had a meeting with black ops last year to talk about limiting weapons to regions, to stop people using them where they are not wanted. Black ops said they would not cooperate with all other weapons makers in creating an opt-in system where you can list the weapons that are permitted for use in your region. Then Jahar tried to presure me into implementing the system on my products anyway, as he knew it would knock me out of the market because my customers would buy a non-cripled system from someone like black ops. This JIRA issue is the latest in his ongoing vendetta to remove competition from the market, to the benifit of the private simulated combat regions. If Jahar and Co manage to remove the damage land from SL, they will then begin a campain to ban all the old weapons based on the damage land, again to benefit their private simulated combat regions. Darling Not that it's relevant to this ticket, but the "pay to play" that you speak of consists of a L$25 fee to join a group. As all of the products that I make are compatible both with the SL Damage damage system and most resident-designed combat systems, I actually have little or no economic interest in this one.
Your description of a "meeting" is both hideously inaccurate and irrelevant to this discussion. The truly humorous part is that Black Ops used to actually implement such a system, whereby the owners of some roleplaying combat systems could ask us to lock the guns to only operate in certain modes in their sims (ie limited ammunition, only roleplaying rounds, particle effects off, etc). We dropped the program as it because simply too complicated to continue. This ticket is about the default SL Damage system. I make products that are compatible with this system, they work very well against this system, but my products are also compatible with several other privately-created combat systems. In my experience working with these systems, I have seen the advantages and disadvantages that they offer in comparison to the default SL Damage system. I did not submit this ticket, all I did was comment on this ticket based upon my experiences in several different combat sims in SL using many different combat systems. Now, as to the substance of my remarks, I will repeat that what I have seen is that often the areas utilizing the SL Damage system wind up being areas in which other attacks, many of them potential violations of the ToS/CS (and in recent cases, potentially US Federal Telecommunications laws) are used. I have seen situations in which the emphasis goes from killing and making an avatar teleport home to forcing the avatar to relog. I agree that this is may be more an issue of social dynamics than a technical issue with how the system works, but that is no different than saying that the societal consequences of drug abuse are equally as important as the pharmacological ones. This doesn't mean that we necessarily MUST remove the SL Damage system. It may mean that it needs to be reworked, or perhaps the ToS/CS needs to be more clear about what rules apply in Damage-enabled land. After all, just because there are some truly excellent private racetracks in SL (I view a trip to Mooz the way a gourmand views a trip to a 5-star restaurant) doesn't meant that we need to rip up the mainland highway system, even though my most recent foray there found that it was all but impossible to drive on due to lag and poorly placed sim crossings (ie having the road cross at the corner). I also made a point of mentioning the broader societal impact of the SL Damage system because Warkirby already covered the technical problems with it. It is overly simplistic, any prim scripted with llSetDamage(100); will kill. This would not be a problem if there were methods to limit this, like if a parcel owner to could limit the max damage of an object. Any physical collision will cause the damage to occur, you can literally just rez a prim and drag it on top of someone to kill them. And then there are the constant bugs in the system that keep popping up, either creating situations in which an avatar can be killed where they shouldn't, or can't be killed where they should. At one point you could kill a seated avatar on safe land if the kill object was over Damage-enabled land. It also used to be that having an invalid home point would result in being virtually invincible over damage-enabled land. Now avatars cannot be killed if they're offset from an object that's placed on non-damage land. And of course, the fact that killing someone teleports them home is incredibly inefficient. I have a friend who has a shop near one of mine, and he has his land Damage-enabled I guess because he likes combat. I know many other weapons shops do the same, but I have to worry about the wisdom of that business practice since no merchant wants their customers to be teleported away while shopping. In combat zones, too, it's inefficient. It often results in being teleported home while you're in the middle of using a weapon. More than once I've rezzed at my homepoint with my gun still firing. Also, teleports can be rather finicky in SL, and being killed right after teleporting into a region, thus causing an immediate teleport out, can result in being disconnected. And if, due to database issues, teleports are down, the teleport fails, you wind up in the same spot you were in, which almost always means being killed immediately (since likely the attack that killed you is still there), and get the black screen for a minute, failed teleport, back to where you were, killed, black screen, etc in an infinite loop. If you're lucky, you might be able to get a moment to get away or maybe pull up a landmark to somewhere else where the TP might complete, but often you simply wind up having to relog. But that just brings me back to where I was earlier, because more often than not if you're in a Damage-enabled region, you might just as easily wind up being hit with an attack that forces you to relog anyways (sometimes your client might just crash, or you'll be sent so far into the intersim void that you get disconnected, or orbited and find that your camera is broken and thus your av seems invisible, which still works in H4 due to exploits that I don't yet understand). I mean, SL residents complain quite a bit when the bugs in the client or server code cause us to have to relog. It seems silly that we ought to ignore it when Damage-induced teleports or glitch-exploiting weapons cause the same. However, my professional experience as a public policy analyst tells me that the likely outcome is that the market itself will determine the outcome. Content creators have developed many other combat systems to address the inefficiencies of SL Damage combat, and with the most recent damage bug turning all of Rausch into virtually a giant safe zone, traffic there has definitely dropped. The griefing that is common in combat sandboxes is also likely to turn people away. However, since there is no real market mechanism that would result in the SL Damage system in and of itself, I think that what this ticket is asking is for Linden Labs to see the writing on the wall and give it a merciful death instead of continuing to watch the combat sandboxes degenerate into griefing playgrounds. Rather than hearing about how I am part of some conspiracy, I would be interested in hearing defenses of the SL Damage system, situations in which it is particularly useful for a given task, reasons why it is preferable in certain situations to using resident-designed combat systems, or reasons why it is absolutely essential to keep. Do we need to continue to have a default combat system, or are we at the point where we can retire it in favor of resident-created content? After thinking it over for a bit, I do see how retiring the SL Damage system would break content designed specifically to work with it (note that I'm not talking about the griefing content I mentioned above, but rather specifically content utilizing llSetDamage() to cause damage/death). That being said, it does appear that most content creators already treat the damage function as being obsolete, as evidenced by the fact that most guns offer compatibility with various resident-created combat systems, and most HUDs seem to focus more on forcing relogs.
Of course, it is nice that SL Damage offers the ability to create weapons that can only affect users who choose voluntarily to be on Damage-enabled land, thus in theory encouraging consensual combat. Then again, most resident-created combat systems offer a similar functionality, you can only be affected by an attack if you are wearing the system, and most content designed to be used with these systems is meant to be generally harmless if not wearing these systems (a DCS or CCS bullet, for instance, is just an ultra-lightweight dummy/training bullet scripted only to communicate with the system if it hits an avatar, and then die regardless of what it has hit.). However, the fact remains that Warkirby made some good points. SL Damage is unfortunately outdated, obsolete, and most egregiously unsupported. While Linden Labs' role is certainly more that of service provider than content creator, the fact remains that they have chosen to provide content here, but exercise minimal effort to support it. If more of an effort were made to police the Damage-enabled sandboxes, and more of an effort were made to fix the bugs and exploits that exist in the SL Damage system, then perhaps this would be irrelevant. With regards to bugs and exploits, I'm not speaking of the fact that SL Damage lacks all the fancy features of privately created combat systems, but the BIG THINGS, like SVC-2450 that render the SL Damage system pretty much inoperable. As it stands, until SVC-2450 is fixed, SL Damage may as well not exist. This exploit allows one to use llSitTarget() in a "safe" (non-damage-enabled) area to offset their avatar into a Damage-enabled area. While the sim and client register and apply all parcel flags based on where the avatar is (the Heart even appears at the top of the screen), the physics engine seems to use the damage bit of the location of the root prim on which the avatar sits when dealing with collisions. Thus even though the avatar is in a Damage-enabled parcel, even though all sensors show that the avatar is in that location on a Damage-enabled parcel, even though all the parcel flags of said Damage-enabled parcel apply to the avatar, and even though the avatar's client shows the Heart at the top of their screen, physical collisions with Damage-scripted objects will do nothing to the avatar. Even dragging a physical prim scripted with llSetDamage(100); on top of the avatar does nothing. Thus, any Damage-enabled area with a safe region within 330-350m (max sit-offset plus average max linkset distances) is essentially a safe region. Since this applies to virtually ALL Damage-enabled parcels, this bug renders SL Damage fairly pointless. And of course, this isn't as bad as previous bugs that allowed avatars to be killed when they were on "safe" land...ughh, don't even get me started. Anyways, my main point is that even if the SL Damage system remains, Warkirby makes some good points about the fact that it is simplistic, obsolete, buggy, and generally unsupported. Being compatable with DCS dosnt means the weapon's creater considered the damage system to be obsolete, it means they want their weapon to be compatable with as many different combat systems as possible. That is just good business.
The original posted of this jira did so to spite the weapons industry after failing with their own line of products. The LDS is still ralavant and fun for many MANY people who use it on their private land all over SL. If you're not a Linden, you don't get to close issues "won't finish".
closed again.
A jira to remove the linden damage system that was opened by a failed weapons maker to spite other weapons makers and only supported by people who sell products that are in competition with the linden damage system has no place in the jira. There are REAL bugs to be fixed. Removal of the default combat engine would criple tens of thousands of products owned by millions of residence. And for what, the benefit of people who sell simulated combat products? That is market manipulation of the very worse kind. As long as SVC-1253 remains unfixed weapons scripted to use linden damage are being made irrelevant by a bug/exploit. The only systems people can use are shield HUD systems like Darling Brody's (henceforth why D. Brody is the one person in SL that likes this mis-feature) and "combat" in damage areas has become a stalemate that is only broken when somebody becomes bored wiht it all and leaves the area.
If the lindens are unable or unwilling to fix the damage system, there really isn't any reason to keep it around. Darling Brody should be disallowed from posting here....it's a conflict of interest.
While I do not really agree that we need to retire the Linden Damage system, I do think that this ticket serves an important point. As long as SVC-2450 and SVC-1253 are still unfixed, the default Linden Damage system is broken. In some situations, it is broken to the point of being unusable.
Thus, I think that this ticket does make a good point: If Linden Lab does not intend to fix and maintain the default Damage system with some semblance of usability, and if they are simply going to allow bugs to pop up that render the basic functionality of the system useless, then they may as well retire the system. As someone who makes products that are compatible with the Linden Damage system, and as someone who enjoys using the Linden Damage system, I do not want to see it retired. However, it is poorly maintained and it seems that as soon as one bug is fixed, more are discovered. Not minor bugs, but bugs that allow people to pretty much be invulnerable on Damage land, or for objects on Damage land to kill residents who are over non-Damage land. Right now the Damage system is barely functioning. Fix it, or retire it. Please don't half-ass it and leave it in a crippled state like this. Yes, combat will likely continue using privately-created systems, but having this crippled system as the default causes a lot of new residents to believe that combat is all but non-functional in SL, when that is most certainly not true. Please fix the default Damage system, but if that is not possible, then perhaps retiring it might make sense. Using this JIRA as leverage to force changes in another one is a misuse of the jira system.
It is like saying "if you dont want to play my way, i will take the damage land away" ( read: bat and ball ) Those people who (and you know who you are) who deliberatly post personal comments about me and then brag about it in-world need to pull their head it. [21:51] Pygar Standish: I had some fun with D Brody in the JIRA ovr the phantom avie glitch The JIRA is not for fun, it is not for sport ...... a commercial product bug reporting system is NOT the place to be a TROLL. A nice little reminder.... Please take the personal warring out of Pjira. Continued editing wars, personal arguments are unacceptable. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PJIRA#Be_courteous
Be courteous Note: The Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, including the Second Life Public Issue Tracker. Any Resident who disregards these guidelines may be banned from future use of the issue tracker. Pjira is neither a Forum nor a blog. It is a system used primarily by Linden Lab's Engineers and Developers. Examples of specific behavior or actions which may result in removal from the Issue Tracker:
I am reopening this as it is a Feature Request, not a Bug Report. Considering dozens of sims use SL damage in relative peace, why would there be a problem in having it regardless of its problems? The LL damage system has some real benefits, including ease of use and universal compatibility, as well as the fact that it does not require the creation and extra lag that comes with a combat meter. Considering it works fine for those who currently use it, it seems like those who want to use meters should be allowed to use those, and those who want to use LL damage should be allowed to stick with this system.
I may be biased because I own a combat sim in New Jessie, but I still don't really see why this functionality, which some of us find superior to the rest out there for our purposes, should be removed, other than perhaps to end complaints by people who can't really live with the system as it is. To be honest, to say the system is unusable is ridiculous - multitudes of us use the system everyday in a variety of sims across the grid and find it to be a lot of fun. Now, Your opinions on the system's fairness, "fun" and "point" are very relative.
There are many SL military RP groups who would say hands down it is a great system. Its not the best, as yes, all bullets kill in one shot. Health gains to fast to do otherwise. There any many independent combat sims that use LL damage, the combat sandboxes are horrible examples as they lack order. Look at sims like Caine Constantine's New Jessie, where I am part of the large Admin team that prevents Abuse and enforces a set of rules to make combat fair to all. Why use the LL combat system? -Its Simple: -Its Unified Also. Aside from the combat basis, you would take down an industry. I am a business owner and scripter, and my company, Ironsight Armaments, deals solely in Linden Damage weapons. While our guns are compatible with some systems that use a physical detection system. To make a gun that does fair damage to all combat systems would require countless man hours of work, larger scripts that decrease performance, and increase lag. Also... Many Combat system creators keep their scripts proprietary, and getting development script kits is harder than pulling teeth from an angry mule's mouth. In Short.... Linden Damage is not perfect, but, as you said, Linden Labs is not the content creator. Removing this system would damage the businesses of many content creators who work hard and contribute to the SL economy. More importantly.. Its not the only option! A simple click of a mouse to check the "Safe" box in a parcel and poof. You are free to wear whatever hud you want on your parcel, but people should be free to use LL Damage system if they so choose. ~Tsume Xiao |
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New Feature
Reopened
Normal
Retire the Linden Damage system
