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sigmund leominster added a comment - 03/Sep/08 01:42 PM
My good friend here speaks from her experience and from her discussions with others. Like any activity, there can be unintended consequences that affect a minority of people. Of course, for the vast majority, engaging in the Second Life(R) experience is stimulating, entertaining, and a social experience that is tremendously enjoyable. What is being suggested here is simply some way of making sure people "engage responsibly" and are aware that too much engagement can be counterproductive. This is NOT to suggest there is anything "wrong" with the Second Life experience - I enjoy it as much as the other resident - but it would be a positive step for Linden Lab (R) management to take take by ensuring that present and future Second Life residents don't ascribe any some to "blame" the company for the development of behaviors that could be described as addictive.
One big issue I see with this though is warning-creep. I could talk about soda, fast food, cigarettes, cars, airplane travel, hiking, biking, sitting in front of a computer, or lying down on a bed, all of which carry risks but since we are just talking about sl I'll lmit it to that.
SL is a dangerous place, there's a risk of sexual hrassment, virtual sexual abuse, fraud, gambling (as much as the Lindens hate to admit that it still exists despite their policy againt it) there's drug use, beastiality, violence, rape, LOTR orgies.... the point I'm trying to make is that if you start putting warnings on SL where does it stop, you'd very quickly get to the poitn where a new user wants to create an account and they give up because they'll have to click through hundreds of pages of disclaimers about the dangers that you might face in SL. The above might seem abstract but lets look at the things that have a greater chance to hurt you in real life, relationships in SL often effect a person's real life, people get emotionally attached, people are financially hurt in RL due to SL... and the list goes on. Many of these things could arguably be considred part of the Immersion addiction but you'd have to draw a line which is something I don't think any single person is in a position to do. Such warnings aren't useless but can you honestly answer the question of where to draw the line? This is a request for a new feature, a warning to be added, it's not really a Meta Issue as it won't have child or siblings. I have changed the type to suit.
I do have to wonder just how new to the entire online world people are when they have to cry about their special online addiction to "insert game name here". This same argument was going with Dungeons and Dragons in the early 80's. Oh yeah, and D&D was "evil" also. Next time the same complaints came about was for EverQuest in 2000...it took them a year to discover how evil a game it was. Oh and it's so addictive too.
Now I'm not saying gaming addiction isn't real. It is. But it is also very common for people to go overboard with their enthusiasm for whatever game they are playing. This is especially true for people that are either new to online games in general or new to a particular game. So it's really hard for me to read someone's sob story about some game destroying their life and that particular game needs a "warning label", with me not crying "N00b". SL Addiction Syndrome is not recognized by the APA or WHO (No DSM or ICD identification). To put a warning about an unrecognized syndrome would cause confusion.
Don't get me wrong, I know how addictive SL can be. I honestly don't know if a warning would be useful. Something I have observed is that for the people who become addicted to SL, they are better at coping and integrating with the SL community then they are with the RL one. A big contributing factor is economic situation. A warning label isn't going to change the realities of the users life. I have to think that this is a joke of some kind. (I first found out about it in the Second Life Herald, which is itself a pathetic joke.) This is stretching the term "addiction" so broadly as to make it meaningless. Anything can be done to excess--so should everything be labeled as "addictive"?
I don't see any warning labels on entertainment like GTA4 or other popular games.
I don't see any warning labels on xbox or other console games. I don't see any warning labels on cell phones (crackberries). I don't see any good in hauling the politicians in here to destroy creativity and freedom since that is all they know how to do. SL is only addictive for a while anyway. This is certainly a joke. No offense - but to ask such a thing of Linden Lab goes beyond the realm of ludicrous.
This 'syndrome' is not recognized by any medical association nor is this considered standard practice in any industry - be it the gaming industry or that of an online service. If you truly have an addiction what you need to do is consult your therapist - not demand a label be slapped onto a program to ward off potentially addicting others. This may indeed be a 'real' addiction but it is not the responsibility of Linden Lab to warn the people who may become addicted or to coddle such people. I will say this one more time: If your are addicted or think you are getting addicted to Second Life - see your therapist! Thanks for your comments - I know this answers I have heard them before I will offer additional information
1) Yes this is serious - not a joke 2) No not blaming LL for this phenomenon - quite the contrary 3) After lots of work, observing and learning about this REAL problem that can be very bad for some people, we know there is no sense in trying to contol it (its beyond the capabilities of the platform or people) 4) Even when a warning will not solve it froom root causes, it is a preventive, non intrusive measure, besides to all nah sayers, doesnt this give you the ultimate answer? Will be like saying, "stop moaning you addict, we even told you so, we warned you before hand". This easy measure, its also very easy to do. 5) It wont hurt anyone to display a WARNING to a real and serious matter 6) Second Life is groundbreaking, we agree on that, then where are we going to find the answers for it? SL need to lead, adding a warning, that can be written in any terms.... will be groundbreaking also, being ahead of the pack, examples of what others have done or havent done its not the way SL should be looking. SL is leading and is social responsible. 8) Internet addiction is being researched I just hope we dont need to wait until someone forces this issue on us. 9) Other addictions existing, will nto make this one disappear 10) I suggest to forget about the causes, lets just let the people be aware, and we can think we did all that was in our hands. If people falls for this in an unhealthy manner, well that's their problem, the fact is most people enters SL without having a clue this could happen to a some of them, and that can be corrected by this. 11) SL addiction (name it as you whish... Internet Addiction... ) its a real and serious problem that causes many afflictions to those suffering form it One of most revered books of human kind, reads, "He who saves one person, saves the world" I dont know if we will help ease the trouble by THOSE few and very rare, sad people that become, obsessed with SecondLife to an unhealthy point. But its is worth to at least let them know this can happen. I know this might not be happening to YOU, but those who are healthy are normally the one that cure the unhealthy. When have you seen a sick doctor curing a healthy patient? Obssesion is a very good way to describe it! You can learn about this reality here: Or if you like videos check this story by BBC: This is not a popular thing, please dont close it after one day of being suggested, just because you do not agree with it.
This should be called: a Warning about "Internet Addiction" not SL Addiction Syndrome. SL is not to be blamed for this. Linden Lab has better things to do wit their time - period.
again, if you have an addiction, seek help, not a label. even if it gets me banned I WILL remind you of this time and again. This society coddles people far too much and it needs to STOP. Please take this to your therapist. Bah - you know what? I'll leave it open and simply give it the priority it deserves.
As I have said however ....Linden Lab has better things to do with their time. A warning is about as useful to those who can get addicted to Second Life or anything else as it is on a toaster telling you not to put a knife in it. Those it targets will do so anyway. Thanks Universal,
If you dont suffer this, whats your problem? This is not about me and apparently not about you. If you prefer a personal private conversation pls spare the serious people, here I offer my email for you, and to those that feel the need to flame me, not a problem as long as you are listening. I also suggest you get informed as much as you can if you are interested in this, if not, well what is harming you so much you feel compelled to remind me everytime? Besides your example is very good, (most appliances include lots of things not to do, like putting a knife on it) Lets wait to see what other people have to say. monymarkova@yahoo.com Thanks again. Hoo boy, whatever next? Sensitivity Training on Orientation Island? Should every noob be issued with a supply of prozak or maybe a virtual diaper and pacifier?
Will we need, someday soon, to fax LL a psychiatrist's assessment of our emotional competence and capacity to "engage responsibly" before we are permitted to enter SL? Not everything is sickness, or addiction or needs to be medicalized. There is such a thing as self-indulgence and there is also poor time-management. As we have seen in many, many wrangles, only adults are allowed in SL. So why do some of these adults apparently "need" to be policed and nurseyd and therapized by other adults who consider themselves to be extra wise, and who naturally only have our welfare and best interests at heart, and who care and worry oh-so-deeply about us all. Those who feel they spend too much time on SL need to log off once in a while. And those uber-adult virtual carers who worry so, need to look up the term "projection", get over themselves / get some therapy (lol), and stop harrassing the other adults in SL. Edited to add: In the interests of accuracy, I note just one, erm, enthusiast, promoting this issue here--and attracting a flurry of votes that can, even after all the publicity, still be counted on the fingers of one hand. There are no signs of the hoarde of "activist" supporters that the said enthusiast is currently alleging in that bastion of truth and propriety, the SL Herald. I agree with others here saying that SL can be addictive for some people, but there is an ocean of things that can be addictive, and agree with Strife that there is no medical or political indication that SL causes addiction.
You cannot compare SL with cigarettes or other drugs, which make everybody addictive who tries them a few times. SL can cause addiction-similar symptoms for some people with a disposition for it, but for lot of people it does not. @Universal, please don't start an "close/open/close" war here. I am almost sure that LL won't put warning signs to the Orientation Islands or Welcome Areas because of the reasons already discussed. . But I think, this jira thread itself is okay to build opinions and a consciousness for this topic. So just keep it open and let the people discuss. Anything powerful can be dangerous. Babysitting the weak minded isn't going to solve any problems. Helping them become strong is. Show them how to use these new tools to benefit their real lives and that indeed is addictive.
 This might be scary, and I understand it, but beleive me this its a necessary step and will ultimately make our community stronger, not weaker. We can bury it, deny it or look the other way.
Still, I agree with you in many things, I think I need to make my self clearer, being this a complex thing as it is. This is only a message, nothing more, no nanny, no medicating no one, no messing with your online experience. This is a recommendation to add a warning note, so SL citizens enter the world better informed. Just a message that can be, placed on TOS, or CS. TOS has many similar messages already anyway. In order to make my self clear I placed this EXAMPLE here ONLY with the intention to clarify the idea (we will leave wording and placement to LL as they better determine, if they decide its a positive thing). **ILUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE** (Remeber all this things are recommendations, whatever ppl does inside the community its their adult decision) Important Warning About Using Internet A small percentage of people may develop obsessive behavior towards internet games and communities. Even people with no history of addictive or compulsive patterns might have an undioagnosed condition that can cause these changes in behavior while participating on internet games or on-line communities. These can range from from mild to grave, resulting in change of personality, abuse of time, neglecting chores and responsibilities, isolation, other physical sytoms can include, lightheadeness, blurred vision, change in dream patterns, head pain, neck pain. Immediatly stop online connection and consult a doctor if you experience any of these syntoms. Since this is an adult game you should ask or share if you present any of thse syntoms with family members. The riks of developing this condition can be reduced by: **THAT WAS AN ILUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE** You know what just striked me? Many of you, even some dear friends to me, talk of ADULT beahvior, and no nannies, and even lettin people learn the hard way, etc. But I urge you to behave like an adult, and contemplate this topic, well like that an adult. I promise to leave this matter in peace, if no one supports it. To the players that say NOOO! Com'on look at something ugly with no fear. Awareness does not hurt, it helps. Again thanks. Mony, your "ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE" is quite good and is a good start for a knowledge base or wiki article. The article could be part of a larger program to improve the user base's heath.
Second Life is a virtual world with residents being 18 or older. Addictions can occur with anything, even playing chess on windows. That doesn't mean there has to be a warning label on everything.
Like i said before PLEASE PLEASE, dont close just because you dislike it. Give it a chance. Consider that this is not a plea to solve the addiction stuff, just to add a simple CAUTIONARY note. That is all.
But this isn't Linden Labs issue, this is the persons issue itself. No amount of warning labels will do anything. Like I said, everything can be addictive to people with addictive personalities. That doesn't mean you have to slap a warning label on this. These type of issues are why the overworked Jira never gets anything serious done.
If you burn yourself spilling coffee on yourself, would you sue for a label on a coffee cup saying Caution:Hot? You have a brain, as well as everyone else, please use it or it will start getting lazy. People 18 and older are mature enough to know what can happen and it is not Linden Labs, the Publics, or any Private sector to fix that. It is the individuals problem. Brendon, I know you dont understand this, but this is true, again after many months on working this issue several ways around I know that one of the few and responsible things to do its to inform people to make them aware.
You make a GREAT point in saying that this is nor LL created issue (its just out there), no one is blaming. But understand that they are the only ones with the means to let citizens know about it. I am willing to concede and modify the request in anyway to support this notion, but the key value of this is people being aware of this possibility. You think, labels will come jumping against your screen, that is not the case, please dont overblow it. We are talking of a preventive, cautionary note, on TOS, relax, that is all, people that read the TOS will read it ONCE and that is it. I know this topic is thorny and touches many sensible fibers, I know, and I tell you, if a silly small warning can help ease someone's troubles, it is worth trying. Why do you think many items place warning like this? Its not for fun. If you knew all I know about this, like people form large companies comming to SL by request of their bosses and then falling for addiction, and you would know how many sad, cases are out there. I am the last person to look for more control, I think less control is better, however this does not diminishes the value of information. This measure, is preventive. And I am not trying to hurt yout experice or mine in SL, or take LL time from solving your bugs. If you think you solved this issue. Please by all means publish the solution, not denial. Thank you LL better do something about this before it is controled the way porn sites are where you have to prove your age before you can enter. I.E. credit card info or something like that to help prove your age. I do not look at these types of sites, but if you all will think about it , it was on the news several years ago, and if I understand it right the government did step in and put up some type of age requirements and warnings. Not to say porn or other sites that might not be for the faint of heart or kids can not be found without proving you age. I beleave most of these sites are not in the U.S. though. SL addiction is real I have seen this first hand, I know I will get flamed for saying this, but it is true even if you choose not to belive it.
Okay, here's the deal.
NO I do not think there should be HUGE WARNING STICKERS all over SL and sensitivity training on Help Island And it's internet addiction - not Second Life Addiction. This isn't specific to SL. It happens with WoW, Everquest, RO and plenty of other online full immersion games. And yes, I think the people affected need to just get up and leave their computers but they don't - my ex BF for example became so immersed in SL that he now thinks he's a bunny woman and his whole live revolves around that bunny woman's involvement in SL. He has no RL left. A warning in the TOS might have made him more cautious so that would not have happened. Who knows. Lastly - GTA4 has warning labels up the ass here (you have to be carded to even buy it), so do most of my games - in fact they have annoying warning screens I see every time I play - what country do you live in? Toys have warnings not to chew them, TVs have warnings to not sit too close. Does everyone listen? Of course not. Point is that they are there. A warning about Internet Addiction may save LL's ass one day too. Don't forget we live in a sue happy world. Yes, a mention of this phenomenon, so people is aware, in TOS or CS, not very wordy, will serve the purpouse, the negative adss everywhere are not desireable.
A single paragraph in TOS would be as far as we can go I guess. We agree people is responsible for their own stuff, this only serves to well prevent the some of them, and this would be all. Its certain that even if LL would import this issue into their workflow, this will be finished out by their lawyers and management so its good for them. There are still many things to go trough I just wish the idea of a couple of paragraph in TOS, about this phenomenon is not threatening to anyone, quite the contrary. EDITED with suggestion and feed back from writers at the blog. Pointing out this is a Internet Phenomenon not SL created. That this is about a couple of paragraphs on TOS, or CS.
I think Eleanor's point about the "sue happy world" is interesting. I'm not sure anyone would necessarily be successful in claiming that "Linden Lab caused my breakdown," but I bet there's an attorney out there who'd be willing to give it a try. Framing this discussion within the general notion of "Internet addiction" seems fruitful too.As has been noted earlier, there is no DSM specific category that deals with this phenomenon, but a number of clinicians do recognize it as a form of maladaptive behavior (c.f. http://psychcentral.com/netaddiction/
 ; http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=3830&cn=66).
Portland Psychiatrist, Jerald Block, has done extensive research and clinical treatment with internet addiction and recently published an editorial in the American Journal of Psychiatry arguing the case for recognizing internet addiction as a real problem. (Check out http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/165/3/306 Linden Lab's "Policy and Guidelines" includes a section on "Online Safety" Although this is NOT the same as posting a huge warning to all new residents as part of a "welcome" package, this could be a great location to add a short comment on the potential danger of prolonged internet use. The current topics are:
Maybe an extra line with "* How to avoid detrimental internet overuse" would suffice. Then, within a "welcome package" a single line saying "please check our 'Policy and Guidelines' document for information on safe internet use. This would also alert then to all the OTHER items such as passwords, accounts, harassment, and so on. As for the content of the proposed addition to the topics, I'm sure Ms. Markova would be happy to help draft suitable copy for evaluation. I appreciate there are folks who feel this is all a waste of time and affects so few people it is not worth any effort. if you feel that way, please choose not to contribute. This suggestion is NOT aimed at the large majority of people who have no issues with using the internet in a responsible fashion; it is aimed at those folks who DO have some challenges in coming to terms with a balanced use virtual worlds. I don't think you can define the addiction or the path to take to avoid it clearly enough to put it in a warning, which in any event, will be ignored as most TOS are ignored.
I do think it's important to include material about the negative aspects of immersion online in orientation infohubs. I put it in the one I developed in Ross and am putting it in on the Moth Temple orientation as well. But I think some facile warning of "Internet addiction" isn't sound. Instead, I write about things like becoming involved in drama through long periods on line, fatigue, and the difficulties of communicating without voice tone and facial expressions; I write about the need to log off when griefers seem to get to you because they thrive on your continued attention and distress; I write about the need to consider whether the SL relationship that seems to "stay in SL" really ever does, as it can have distressing consequences. But I think this is a personal matter of residents to write on their own land in their own communities as they see fit. I don't think Linden Lab can be expected to evolve this and executive it themselves. Eventually, just as for video games and the motion picture industry, community groups in real life will lobby for labelling or even regulation of immersive online worlds. It's only a matter of time. There is no pretending this won't happen; there is no fake libertarian argument to prevent this because in a democratic society, people do have the right to govern themselves as they see fit. There will be some communities in some states or perhaps even some nations that will see fit to regulate virtual worlds. Already we see in places like China or Korea that there are such regulations where you are even logged off the world/game for your own good. It's good this is discussed. On the screen shots, I organized some of the ideas on 3 groups of comments: (we need to note that on this topic some voters, have elected not to post any comments!)
1 Comments from people saying No Way! Hope it helps It's been a long and winding road.
I have this friend I've known for 30 years and a few years back he got rid of his computer, his microwave oven, his cell phone and his television. I suggested he might get an outhouse while he was at shedding technologies, but that's another story. We talk on the wired telephone once a month or so. The last call I mentioned 3d online games as something that had come a long way since he deteched. Like it or not, it's a common enough perception of this program that it facilitates addiction like behaviours. In sillier moments I think the promotions department at LL could take this one up and use the "Seriously Addicting" concept as a promotional vehicle. It's not a bad idea Mony, I haven't read the TOS anyway because the odds of me running afoul of it are amazing, so I would have missed it. This puts me between evaluating and Yes Way. Being this so complex
1. It is a real phenomenon I am 100% Awareness its 1st step towards a bigger solution and it might help someone somewhere. That is it. In respecting the space and other people I have taken details and extra information away from this site into a personal blog for those who are interested. (Emerald I am sure its not your case, that was very clear).
One last time, this is only a request to include a Cautionary mention of this phenomenon for citizens. On any form on any place that is convenient and serves this purpose. This is the personal blog for those who want to extend an open conversation on this matter. http://monymarkovaaddiction.blogspot.com/ Sincerely P.S. If you have for me any personal notes, observations, messages, you can also use that site, its kind of hard to keep this one serious. Rest assure I think requesting this its a step in the right direction, but there could be a better way to deal with it, and I am open to it, I will cease and desist of this, once that light comes out. I don't think having a paragraph in the TOS or CS is appropriate. You don't have a warning about RSI in your OS license and RSI is REAL (RSI = Repetitive Strain Injury; Carpal Tunnel is an example). Every keyboard comes with a warning about RSI most even have a length sticker on the underside.
In a country in which Freedom of Speech is considered one of our primary laws, I respect the rights of all the posters above to state their opinions, both positive and negative.
However, I assure everyone here this issue is no joke. Those who think it is obviously have little or no experience with addiction. Those who have, realize such problems are very, very real. Strife, you state (somewhat incorrectly) that Second Life addiction is not recognized by any official authority. That is not actually correct; internet addiction (of which Second Life is a part) is indeed a medically recognized problem. Second Life does not have to be mentioned specifically for it to be included in this issue. The real question here is to what extent (if any) should Linden Lab present this issue to their customers? I personally see nothing wrong with every once in a while, a small blip appearing on the splash page, somewhat akin to: "Please be aware that internet addiction is a medically recognized problem. If you feel you may be suffering from such, please contact your doctor. Go HERE to take a short survey to see if you may possibly be suffering from internet addiction in regard to Second Life." I have myself lately been considering posting a blog page for people to examine whether or not they are internet addicted. The immediate question of course would be "what qualifies you to design such a page". My answer: RL experience in the field. Same thing that qualifies anyone. I worked as a corporate consultant for over 2 decades. HR is one of the main issues in such consultation. The internet can be addictive. Second Life is one of the most potentially addictive aspects of the Internet that I have come across. There is a need for some kind of assistance (or just a basic notification) to be provided to users who ARE addicted. Because this is no laughing matter folks. Second Life has been involved in people going bankrupt, losing jobs, has destroyed families. People may want to turn a blind eye to such... but these are realities. Second Life has a dark side that as much as anyone may wish to wear rose colored glasses and ignore it... is definitely there (I could write a thesis). Voting for this one, not in regard to specific solutions, but in bringing attention to the issue. wayfinder, I was only objecting to it being labeled as "SL Addiction Syndrome", I do agree that the vague classification of "Internet Addiction" is more appropriate.
A message during login while things are loading is a good idea. You're sitting there waiting for the thing to load, you might as well learn something that could improve your quality of living. There is a flip side to labeling SL as having addictive aspects; the act of labeling it may further enable the addictions of new users. Someone reading about SL's addictive aspects may then go seek those aspects out (like telling a porn addict about a new porn site). I don't think this should deter us though.
Yeah, totally agree with you on all points Strife. With one addition however: I think that Second Life probably qualifies as one of the most potentially addictive aspects of the internet. I mean, people can get hooked on YouTube, but they're not as likely to stay up to 4am watching YouTube as they are playing SL. Why? Because SL (and other online games) has something that other aspect of the Internet usually lack: human interactivity and creativity. Those are basic to the human nature... and anything that's basic to human nature can be extraordinarily habit forming.
But yup, I don't disagree with you on a single point. yeah, and while we're at it, why don't we put a sign on the Xcite landmarks "may contain nuts"?
Warning on Money: "Caution, may lead to Spending Addiction"
Warning on Food: "Caution, may lead to eating addiction" Warning on the air surrounding you: "Warning, may lead to breathing addiction" Does the JIRA have a rolleyes smiley? I need one badly. :rolleyes: The harm comes from excessive hours, not from the game/platform itself.
What is ok for one person, can be harmful for another. What harms me is reading this dribble on jira.
The proposal is well-intentioned... but, in my opinion, undesirable.
For comparison... if any MMO should have an warning regarding internet addiction, it is most definitely World of Warcraft(tm). I could not find such a warning in their online information. Internet addiction can be a destructive affliction. Fortunately, unlike other addictions like drugs or gambling, SL is not as inherently destructive, and actually contains certain moderating factors, such as online friendships with concerned and caring people, that may help people detect and eventually overcome that addiction. |
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New Feature
Reopened
Nice to have
Warning about the possibility to develop Internet* Addiction Syndrome for new citizens *(edited to remove SL)
