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Jacek Antonelli added a comment - 31/May/08 08:49 AM
I'm experiencing this problem as well. My SL5B won't run, because it complains about "missing communities". I think that installing the missing communities would fix it, but it looks like that can only be done on LL's end.
I have noticed the same thing, regardless of which hardware I use. My peopleware is the same on all platforms, though.
For now, I am working around it, by running SL with SL5B uninstalled. There may be a constant in llPublicRelations.cpp that is set too high in the latest release - perhaps somebody could try re-compiling with PR_SENSITIVITY at a lower value?
update: Harleen Gretzky downgraded the priority on this from 'shopstopper' to 'normal'. I wonder what the workaround is? Downgrading from SL to the Sims? They have children!
Vint, much as it pains me to see LL excluding select communities from the SL5B celebrations, the simple fact is that for a lot of people (the unvocal majority), it's business as usual whether or not LL rolls back these changes. So it's not a showstopper in the JIRA sense.
it IS a showstopper in the major sense. Right now, my bet is on unofficial SL5B celebrations actually rezzing closer to the actual dates. I would hope that whatever Linden Lab does, it does not censor these celebrations as well (excepting those that clearly break the laws of California or America). It is sad that this issue has had to be forced. let's get to fixin' it. Patchouli, a group was created "Kids5B", that will do its own celebration project outside of the LL SIMs. We have 1, if needed 2 SIMs available and it will be a showcase of the creativity, fun and happiness of the kids community in SL
 I am experiencing this problem too. The child avatar community is missing from my SL5B application form.
I find it regrettable that LL has decided to snub three of its more significant and loyal constituencies by excluding them from SL5B: kid avis, gor and bdsm.
I find it doubly regrettable that LL has lumped the kids community - in my experience, one of the nicest, smartest and least sexual communities within SL - together with gor and bdsm. Not that I have any objection to the latter - or for that matter, anything else between consenting adults. To paraphrase Voltaire, "I may not like what you roleplay, but I will defend to the death your right to roleplay it." I simply resent the insinuation that the kid community is centered around sex, because that is just false. Furthermore, we are not child molesters. In fact, virtually everyone I know in the kid community really cares deeply about real kids (just look at our fundraising for real kid charities) and has zero tolerance for anyone who would hurt a RL kid. Nor do we abound in real kids hiding behind the kid avis. Our community is probably tougher than most of SL about reporting any real kids who sneak in. Most of us just want to be young and happy again, to release our inner child, to re-experience our youth with the good stuff - and without the bad stuff, which for some of us was really bad. Particularly for gay people, our school years were usually somewhere between lonely and nightmarish. Is it anything to be ashamed of that we want to re-experience them in the way that we wish they had been? Does LL really feel they have to sweep this under the rug? Aren't emotional needs (not to mention civil liberties) like these one of the business premises of "Second Life"? Perhaps LL thinks they can make piles of money turning SL into a corporate virtual networking platform. If so, good luck. I guess you don't need us. But right now, the kid community represents a fairly large base of loyal users who pay significant real money into SL. It is a shame that LL doesn't have the backbone or vision to see that publicly advocating "roleplay rights" (i.e. virtual or fictional activities between consenting adults) is in their business interests. Upgrading to critical... since it is fair to say that we're being critical.
Everyone is aware that Gor™ violates copyrights, right? The books that Gor™ belong to John Norman — the pen-name of Dr. John Lange, a professor of Philosophy at NYU. As far as I am aware (I have tried to contact him) He is not involved with SL™ and has no interest in it. However, the law doesn't care. Until he dies, Gor is his thanks to Senator Sonny Bono and his wonderful copyright law.
And Honestly, Do we want SL5B to be family friendly or not. You can't have Bondage and Sadomasochistic sex and still call the celebration family friendly. And besides, BDSM isn't a culture. Its a lifestyle. You choose to engage in it as your personal expression of your sexual urges. Functionally, it is a form of 'power play', where power dynamics are used as part of the erotic experience. As such, BDSM mainly involves at least two participants, these being the "Top" who is the dominant partner in the relationship and the "Bottom" who is the submissive. BDSM tends to involve "scenes" where the party enjoys a scenario which normally tends to involve one of the party voluntarily giving up control or authority. Mind you that a lifestyle is part of culture but this refers back to Gor and Gorean culture which would require formal permission from Dr. Lange. Good luck with that! As for Child avatars, I think the Supreme Court of The United States, where like it or not the headquarters and both collocation facilities for SL sit, decided that child avatars can be considered not protected speech they are used in a sexual manner. I do realize that most of those who do child avatars do them for different reasons.none of which involve sex. However In the 7-2 ruling, the Supreme court dismissed arguments that the PROTECT Act, passed by Congress in 2003, was too broadly written and could make it a crime to possess or pander images that aren't sexually graphic. Justice David Souter filed a dissent in that case, joined by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Souter was troubled that the law makes no distinction between the pandering of images featuring real children and images that were virtually created by a computer, because, he wrote, the law was specifically aimed at preventing the exploitation of children, not the mere ownership of objectionable material: Under the new law, the elements of the pandering offense are the same, whether or not the images are of real children. We all what happened when the US govt sneezed regarding something online. And I promise the next time a child pron event appears in world that will be be the last time anyone will be allowed to create child avatars. So what does this all mean. Simpy, that these are problem areas to LL and it has no desire to involve problem areas. That is my opinion. I am not what I'd call a qualified member of either avatar communities, but find them to be among the more cohesive "communities" in our amazing virtual world.
As a plus-size (fat) avatar, I'd likely wonder if those of us with bodies at the other end of the norm (larger than average, rather than kid-shaped and kid-sized) would be the next to go. BDSM is a culture and community within SL, as is Gor (copyrighted or not outside of SL) and most certainly the child avies, along with tinies, furries, GLBT, plus the many countries, languages, and RL international cultures that are represented in-world. To exclude some of the more creative, family-friendly, non-sexual avies on the grid for fear of damaging someone's delicate sensibilities but allowing other 'communities' who are INFINITELY more sexual and/or out-of-the-ordinary is completely irresponsible. As for BDSM being allowed a place in a PG exhibition – shouldn't it be up to them as a community whether or not they can, or want to, come up with something PG to represent their community? They should at least have the option to participate, if they can do so within understandable boundaries and guidelines. I'm certain the child avies would have had absolutely no problem maintaining decorum during a PG event. shakes head I'm amazingly disappointed, LL. This is an incredibly important issue, and its stirring up a lot of serious discussion outside of SL. Just do a Google™ search for: sl5b child
I think over the next few days, there will be many more search results. I'm thinking .... it only starts with child avs. Who will be left out next year? My SL5B is missing several communities it depends on! Everytime I try to run it it crashes to boot! Please fix!
I am amazed that Linden Labs would violate its own TOS policy- "Tolerance", a general rule within their own Community Standards. Tolerance as they define is ; Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.
Did I miss something? We are a self governing society living by a set of "6" rules established by Linden Labs. In America we do not get to decide who we discriminate against, and neither should they. LL has taken away they one unique principle of this virtual Society. "Your World, Your Imagination. They have sent the entire world a message that THEY are indeed capable of playing God and tweaking the rules whenever a possible inconvenience may be presented. It is despicable that they would even consider banning any group of citizens from participating in their world. There are other virtual worlds worlds that appreciate my creativity, expression and money, I do not have to idly watch a corporation infringe of my rights as a human being. I'm with Rosie, I'm also plus sized.
 The application form is definitely broken. shakes computer Besides, I have friends who are kid avies, I am one myself sometimes, and I think it is discrimination to exclude any builds by child avies. To be fair, they have gone to bat for us several times and gotten burned several times.
So, it appears that no applications from child avatars will be accepted. That means there will be no bouncy castles or avatar canons or swing sets. No play ground. No Marianne. Or course, no BDSM or Gor, either. BDSM .... it would be hard to have a PG display of that. Gor? That's literature! (Awful literature, but still.) Gor is a bunch of people in pseudo-medieval garb in pretty sims running around with swords. Ok, kajira too. But that's only part of the story!
As the director of the Art Department for SL5B, am I supposed to sensor people who try to display children in their pictures? I can understand a PG rating. Ok, I'll comply and so will the artists. But no children? No medieval scenes? What next? Furries? Vampires? Star Trek? (Remember, Kirk kissed an alien.) Everyone knows they're weird. Oh dear! That means all animal avatars are gone. Mechs.. Super heros. (Oh, that would be too horrible to contemplate Can't have sperm shooting out at 100 kps. Think of the push THAT would have.) POST SCRIPT ... Do I have to interview people and ask them if they have any child avatars in their inventory? @Shoshana That would eliminate everybody. At least until LL removes the "Little Red Riding Hood" AV from the Library. I give it six months, tops.
Lindens, there's an expression: you gotta dance with them what brung you. I find this pretty disturbing. Why leave a part of SL out of these celebrations.
It's a celebration for all who are in to Second Life. As a member of the second life open source community, a contributor to the open source mailing list and as a child avatar, I would suggest that as a community we contribute as much as anyone else. We deserve recognition; we dont deserve to be shunned from a celebration which is designed to celebrate five years of second life.
Second Life is nothing without the community. Therefore SL5B is celebrating the community. We are part of the community. I just dropped this notecard (and a truncated form, in IM) on 3 Lindens: Jack, Dusty, and our illustrious leader, M:
"The Terms of Service and the Community Standards specifically forbid intolerance. Yet Linden Lab, the author of those documents, has forbidden a group that is well WITHIN the Community Standards and Terms of Service (those using child avatars but NOT in a sexual sense) from participating in the 5th Birthday celebration. I cannot begin to express how this blatant ignoring of Linden Lab's own stated policy sickens me. I am not alone; there is a rising swell of ill feeling, and it's spreading beyond SL itself... just Google 'SL5B' and take a look at a few links. I am calling you out, sir. I'm calling on you for an explaination of how a group, a community, within SL that is not only within the ToS and CS and one of the LEAST sexual groups in this virtual world, comes to be excluded from an event that supposedly celebrates the communities and diversity within SL. I challenge you, sir, to explain it. And to take action to rectify this gross injustice. I have expressed myself in this fashion on your blog and the forums: "LL, in its infinite wisdom, has forbidden SL 'childrens groups' from having a build/exhibit at the 5th birthday celebration. Oh, child avatars can attend, but they're forbidden to contribute. Way to go, LL. Trying to set new standards for politically correct cowardice? Speaking of standards... why do the TOS and Community Standards shake the finger at discrimination if LL, the author of those documents, is going to freely engage in it? Hypocrites and cowards. Every one." I do hope that you will give me reason to rescind this statement. Yours, Solomon Devoix" If LL wants to give the impression that it won't tolerate anything involving adults mistreating children, they should ban all exhibits by adults. It's the adults in those situations that are breaking the rules.
I suspect that this decision is motivated by fear on the part of LL...fear of negative publicity, fear of lawsuits, fear of negative reception towards a potential "liquidity event," what have you. May I remind them: "A life lived in fear is a life half-lived." (Strictly Ballroom, 1992). That applies to Second Lives as well.
"I suspect that this decision is motivated by fear on the part of LL...fear of negative publicity ..."
--Erbo Evans - 31/May/08 05:30 PM on LL has fear of negative publicity, so then they do something that earns them more negative publicity than they would have had if they hadn't set such a policy in the first place. Yea, that's real intelligent. I just downgraded my premium account to basic.
In one year of SL, I have had a chance to meet child avatars (unluckily for me, they were not looking for a parent but wanted something else and were abuse reported a couple of times), BDSM people (some of which were using Christian crosses as a tool for torture), Gorean people (apparently, the most harmless as their abuses are mainly verbal, but perhaps I have met quite a few vanilla ones) and many other diverse people. I am diverse as well in RL because I am gay so I think I should know what intolerance means, because I also live in a country where gays still have fewer rights than gays in other parts of Europe (where I am located).
I have my personal view on this controversy. It is clear, as was the case of Burning Life 2008, that when we hear Linden Lab proclaiming that an event will welcome all forms of expressions and all communities we should ask ourselves the question: "Oh really?". In my humble opinion, Linden Lab made a horrible mistake in letting residents think they could control an environment owned and created by Linden Lab and an even more horrible mistake was to increase Second Life's visibility by allowing anyone to get into it through free basic accounts. The real world is full of people I would not like to meet, why should I have to meet them in SL? But no, it was important to raise resident figures and now Linden Lab has to face a lot of problems with people from countries where the perception of freedom of expression differs from what is acceptable in the United States of America. It all comes down to this really: the applicable law is California law and I know that there is a much stronger sensitivity to child protection against sexual predators than there might be in my country, as well as a stronger stance against gambling and a refusal of banking activities because both violate California or Federal laws. Carrying weapons doesn't infringe any Federal law, although weapons are generally very harmful in SL and are regulated in almost every country BUT the US – and I am APPALLED not a soul protests on that, but who am I to dare complain? I am not American, therefore either I accept to be shot to death in US virtual territory or asked to leave. Linden Lab should have implemented the California and Federal laws it now appeals to from the onset, but they tried to abide to the staple rule of SL: Your World, Your Imagination (it used to be Your World, Your Way in 2003, interesting that they changed the slogan). Anyhow, there are applicable laws and you must face the fact, sooner or later. That's the reality of SL by now and has been the reality of the web at large since it became commonplace and a "family" thing. In the early days of the web, anything went. Now, everything is regulated, checked and verified, but I don't see many complaints. I am sorry and feel for those who think that their rights have been violated (although the tolerance standard does not mention age and sexual practice, and doesn't even mention body hair or body fat, which may allow LL to ban plus sizes and furries, or hairy human avies like me – see how easy it is to create a law and twist it around to your advantage?) but I would like to remind everyone that the best thing to do in a game when you really do not feel you belong anymore is to leave. And stop paying money for it. Linden Lab is the OWNER of the platform and may change the rules any time they want. That is the undisputed truth. They may close down if they have no more residents and that is another undisputed truth, but in one year of SL I have seen dozens of people telling me they would leave SL and I still see them there buggering me with some new issue Another thing LL could do is block access to anyone who does not reside in the US. Other companies do that because their content is copyrighted or licensed to the US only, why shouldn't LL? On a final, funnier note, it is interesting that M Linden has the name M. It reminded me of a Fritz Lang's movie with a marvelous Peter Lorre (when he was still in Germany) called M. And the plot is about a child murder so brutal that even the mob helps the police track the killer, who is called M throughout the movie. Perhaps M Linden should change his name? Have a great weekend, people. Sandor Looking back I wonder if #2 is the reason for the exclusion of all three groups from the exhibition:
(http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/1...owing-ageplay/  )
"There are three key aspects, which are in breach of the Community Standards: (1) participation by Residents in lewd or sexual acts in which one or more of the avatars appears to represent minors (or the depiction of such acts in images, video, textures, or text) is a violation of the Community Standards; (2) promoting or catering to such behavior or representations violates our Community Standards. For instance, the placement of avatars appearing to represent minors in proximity to "sex beds" or other sexualized graphics, objects, or scripts, would violate our Community Standards, as would the placement of sexualized "pose balls" or other content in areas depicting playgrounds or children's spaces; (3) the graphic depiction of children in a sexual or lewd manner violates our Community Standards." Since the event is PG and those groups are allowed to attend the event, will they be policing those that attend to make sure they are staying within #2 above as well? I'm having the same problem with my SL5B and i wonder if i should RA Linden Lab for Intolerance
Folks in the child-AV community should clearly be allowed to participate, as they have in all the previous celebrations.
If LL really has some strong reason driving them to reject proposals from child AVs, they should just TELL US WHAT IT IS. I can understand if some nation has a stupid law, or some recent court decision makes them pretty sure they'd be successfully sued out of existence if they did certain things, but I Sheesh. Sandor said:
"It all comes down to this really: the applicable law is California law and I know that there is a much stronger sensitivity to child protection against sexual predators than there might be in my country, as well as a stronger stance against gambling and a refusal of banking activities because both violate California or Federal laws. Carrying weapons doesn't infringe any Federal law, although weapons are generally very harmful in SL and are regulated in almost every country BUT the US – and I am APPALLED not a soul protests on that, but who am I to dare complain? I am not American, therefore either I accept to be shot to death in US virtual territory or asked to leave. Linden Lab should have implemented the California and Federal laws it now appeals to from the onset, but they tried to abide to the staple rule of SL: Your World, Your Imagination (it used to be Your World, Your Way in 2003, interesting that they changed the slogan)." Okay, let me explain something to you. You're making the same mistake a great many people make. You go on and on about protecting the children, the laws of the U.S. and California and so on. Let me point out a few things to you: 1) This is the adult grid we're talking about. REAL children aren't supposed to be here. So that in itself is all the 'protecting of the REAL children' you need. 2) If a real child DOES get access to the main grid, they are NOT going to use a child avatar! A child on the main grid is going to want to be seen as an adult, and experience things from an adult perspective. Anyone on the main grid using a child avatar is GUARANTEED to not be a REAL child. Therefore, excluding or otherwise persecuting those with child avatars in an attempt to protect REAL children is worse than misguided... it's willfully stupid. 3) The protection of REAL children you're prattling about is mainly in regards to sexual abuse. In case you missed it, let me point out again that the child avatar community in question is NOT SEXUAL IN ANY WAY. What part of that are you failing to understand? "your world, your imagination" and now we can append: 'their hypocrisy'.
In my time in SL as a kid avatar, I have been able to enter a virtual world to live my second childhood of imagination, fun, friendship, and creativity - a portion of myself freed from the responsibility and other trappings of my adult and professional life. Meanwhile, I have marveled at how the technology of this metaverse shows so much promise to take us beyond some of the limitations of our reality to potentially new ways of being human. I could care less about the actual SL5B stuff, and I think what the kid community is doing with Kids5B will be more fun and creative since we are pulling together around what makes SL really important to us. Heck, now I don't want to be allowed since I think our stuff will be even better. I have been seeing real passion in the Kids5B group. So cool. Many other groups in the real world are looking at how take the concepts of virtual worlds, MMO, 3D web, ... whatever we want to call what SL currently does... and run with it... what we need to do is help to remember the lessons we are learning here and now. If LL wants to monetize and shun us because people don't know how to embrace freedom and tolerance, so be it, they can carve out a smaller chunk of reality to limit themselves, while we continue to enlarge our reality. summary: Forever shine the spirit of youth's hope, joy, and creativity! Lindens: lead, follow, or get out of the way. FEAR: forever evading another reality. I'm happy to have the Lindens keep creepy child avatars and violent and slave-owning cults of Gor and BDSM out of the public commons. They aren't banned from Second Life; but they are not promoted in the public space. I think that's a legitimate decision on the part of Linden Lab. As we're often told by some of these very complainers on this thread over things they want to support that LL does, LL is a private company. Right of expression doesn't trump right of association in cases like this.
Solomon Devoix: You clipped part of a longer post from me out of context and pasted it onto a criticism against me simply because my view slightly differs from the view of most of you. This happens on the SL blog as well.
I invite all posters to read my full post and tell me in which way it reflects any criticism towards Solomon or anyone else who is complaining here. It was meant as a point of view, not as an attack. But since it tells everyone (including myself) that LL is the owner of the platform, it was met with the usual "you are against us" sort of reply. Sandor Prokofy, what is creepy about child avatars? Are they creepier than, say, robot avatars? Or is it the fact that there must be an adult at the computer behind a child avatar? Well, then everyone in SL is creepy. Men playing female avatars, women playing male avatars, humans playing animal-like furry avatars, living beings playing inanimate objects...normal-sized humans playing tiny animals....fat people playing thin people, etc.
What "right of association" are we talking about here? It's rather like locking up a madwoman in the attic -"yes, she's here and allowed to live with us, somehow, but we do not talk about her." (as in Jane Eyre) It's funny how you always put anyone into the same box labeled "against me"-whatever do people you get into tussles with on the JIRA have to do with people who complain about this policy, apart from a few that apparently do both? Isn't that normal? But to lump each and every one of all your "opponents" into the same category? (Please save your breath calling me fanboi (which I am not, I'm not even male and the spelling is derogatory, to say the least), a literalist (which is a useless description for a linguist like me anyway) or any of the other things I've been called on blogs or in JIRA issue comments.) I'm gonna say the exact same thing I said to my favorite basketball team at their final game, directing it to Linden.
BOO!!! WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN TO US FOR ONCE AND TRY A LITTLE BETTER?!?!?! Prokofy, your ignorance keeps astonishing me. The fact that "LL is a private company" has nothing to do with the fact, that Linden Lab is giving up part of their original vision here. And frankly, I don't care what you think is "creepy" or not. You belong to the worst Second Life has to offer.
I personally find the child avatars disturbing, and the Gorean culture of subjugation and abuse of women personally offensive. I abhor violence in lovemaking. So this issue does not have anything to do with me....
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me. Or does it? Wil, don't worry about Prokofy. She loves to be provocative. I think she measures her success in the number of times her name is mentioned.
Shoshana, you do know that Prokofy is a "he" and will get very very angry if you disclose RL information like that? Several people have alread been told off because of that. No, I'm not kidding.
No, I have no idea. Never met Prokofy IRL or in SL, never looked up his profile. Somewhere in my head, I got "she" vitbes. Thank you for the correction.
Ok seriously I have been around since 2004 in all sorts of shapes and sizes and have been though almost every part of the SL culture and i can say without a shadow of a doubt that the children in SL have to be one of the least creepy group out there.
and as for Prokofy Neva blatantly bigoted and rude comment of "I'm happy to have the Lindens keep creepy child avatars and violent and slave-owning cults of Gor and BDSM out of the public commons." all I have to say is that it is comments like that the fule all the hatred in this world. Honestly the whole premise behind the the SL 5th Birthday party is to "Celebrating the cultural diversity of Second Life" and by excluding certain groups (no matter how much they clash with your beliefs) is bigoted plan and simple. The only group outright banned from presenting is the child community.
Nobody else. So even the 'worst' of the sexual deviances can be on display if they can come up with a PG rated build. But not the innocent children role-players who have nothing to do with any sexual age play due to the media's lead with the mud or the blood mentality to feed the ratings Our world. Our imagination.
If this is not true for people who use child avatars, some of the most imaginative among us, then it's not true for anyone. And that means Second Life is broken. You want to fix it, right? Good, thanks. (Creepy? Like RL females with creepy male avatars?
 Must have been a good week for Prok: preserved traffic and banned kids. Stuff to celebrate at SL5B, for sure.)
I can come up with an almost plausible reason that LL can't comment publicly nor change this without making things worse. I would be nice, though, to get list of what "cultures" are permitted at this point, even if a clear statement of guidelines would be problematic. I've heard rumors that prok is a 50 year old white woman from NYC, but I firmly believe he's a precocious 16 year old boy who sneaked onto the grid.
So, on subject, SL has a policy that child avatars may not be depicted in proximity to any object that could possibly be interpreted sexually, such as a bed. I believe this is where the fear of sandcastles comes from. Since I wasn't really sure if I'd be in trouble for having pictures of my RL kids jumping on the bed, I looked up the US code on child pornography here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001466---A000-.html Pay attention to this line: "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" besides which, the picture has to be obscene, so I don't think a picture of a child avatar playing on a sandcastle would make it to court. When the Linden's came for the Goreans,
I remained silent; I was not a Gorean. When they excluded up the role-players, When they came for the child avatars, When they came for the furries, When they came for me, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came
Even if you have never been a child avatar ....
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. LL is not just following its monetary interests by kowtowing like this to the small-minded and ignorant. LL should be pointing out the absymal lack of logic in those who say, "If some people who play as children in SL engage in pedophile sexual activites, then all people who play as children in SL engage in pedophile sexual activities." Rather, it is contributing to the perception that eradicating child avatars from in-world participation has some actual connection with protecting real children in a real world.
LL, you're appearing both ridiculous and spinless to anyone capable of looking at this issue from a logical point of view. I would agree with Fogwoman Gray's comments on this issue.
Although I have personal objections to a few of the communities mentioned, I must however side with a Libertarian view on this and vote in support of Vint's JIRA measure. And besides, Gor is such a target-rich environment for my Royal Caledon Air Force Bomber Command This is definitely a showstopper. It certainly killed any mood for celebration in me.
I am not a member of the group you are washing your hands of, but my impression is that they are among the most innocent of SL, and to sacrifice them in this way is an abuse of the child within all of us. Please fix asap. I'm definitely see a hit on my performance from this issue. It also seems to have killed my ability to celebrate SL5B.
I've tried clearing my cache and relogging, but the issue remains. I'm still a kid avvie who's SL5B build was denied before it could even be reviewed. I will be applying the Kids5B patch, but that just seems like a hack. I'd rather see it built into the official viewer. Priority back where it belongs
It is being imported to the G-Team anyway so priority makes no difference, but it hardly fits an example of a showstopper "For example, inability for many Residents to login."
I dunno... in this case, "many Residents unable to login" fits all too closely for my taste with "many Residents unable to participate in"...
Hardly, they can still login, they can still attend, and they can still participate in other ways. But the point is moot, from today's Bug Triage:
[12:52] Alexa Linden: I think the above is the expected response from the Lindens, Gig. Tolerant amusement and belittlement with no action. About what's expected from JIRA...which is why it's only issues like this that get people here to comment and vote. Most of us have long ago given up on action ..or even response. Note you had to go to an inworld meeting...and even then they admitted never looking at it...when it's had more votes and watchers than any other issue in months. Business as usual.
silverdrake sparrow mentioned US code 18:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001466---A000-.html pursuant to pedophilic presentation, and, after reading through that, in all fairness I have to comment on one additional line therein that may be getting missed. Seems a fairly recent change. From section 1466A(c): Nonrequired Element of Offense.— It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist. While Cliff Commons' answer to the Lindens' official response- I still protest this issue- The line you mention is out of context. The representation whether of a real child or a "cartoon" one, still has to be doing something defined as being wrong by the rest of the act. It is the part the Supreme Court let stand this time..and has to do with "pandering" They assumed that a prosecutor could tell from context if the depiction was meant to appeal to the baser instincts of the viewer. Personally, I think they give prosecutors way too much credit for common sense, and the issue will soon be back based upon the dissents...but people could still be hurt in the meantime. ie..underwear ad's are ok...as long as they are not promoted as "sexy". Romeo and Juliet is ok whether it is done by minors or adults playing minors..as that is "art". The idea that they mean virtual worlds are not allowed to have portrayals of children doing childish things is...well...insane?
Yes.the US now has joined much of the rest of the western world in being unable to tell the difference between real and unreal. But we are not talking of LL allowing a knocking shop for minors. I suspect they turned down a couple of playgrounds. lowering to major, this is not a showstopper by any means although it is a major issue. Although it may effect you adversely it does not prevent widespread access to the grid.
Upping back to Showstopper, in response to the following:
<=> Harleen Gretzky - 02/Jun/08 01:35 PM: It is being imported to the G-Team anyway so priority makes no difference, but it hardly fits an example of a showstopper "For example, inability for many Residents to login." Solomon Devoix - 02/Jun/08 01:42 PM: Harleen Gretzky - 02/Jun/08 02:11 PM: [12:52] Alexa Linden: And, Reducing down again, this is not a showstopper ok I realize you're pissed at LL I sympathize I would be too however this just isn't a showstopper it's a major at best. Putting it as showstopper at this point is disruptive and is not helpful.
I don't see the point of the above quotes, so it's going to the g-team and Harleen commented and if priority doesn't matter than there's no reason for you to put this in the priority reserved for really major grid stopping issues, all this does is make it harder to actually find true showstopper issues when browsing by priority. Gordon..you can't ignore one issue that's trying to make a point? Are there really that many showstoppers that this one is keeping you from whatever it is you do?
A question in response to that, does this really need to be a showstopper? I'll look up the definition defined by the lindens on the wiki if I really have to but I think good judgement is a better solution, showstopper is the highest priority possible and really should only be used for stuff that causes massive grid crashes and entire denial of service. A Linden decision to deny a certain event from building (not attenting, just not letting them build as part of it) is not a grid stopping issue.
And I'm putting it back up to showstopper. Gordon, you and Harleen both claim that the rating it's at won't make any difference as this is being kicked up to the governance team.
Well, if that's the case, you and Harleen can just lay off lowering it back down, as there's no reason for you to do it except to piss other people off. moving to critical as a hopeful compromise even though this doesn't even qualify really as critical, you have nothing to back up you're claims that this is a showstopper issue other than the fact that it is something that has pissed off a large community within SL. Force of numbers does not give you the right to ignore the priority guidelines. Give one good reason why this is a showstopper when as per the reasons I have stated above this does not fall under the category of a gridwide issue and this notice has already been noticed by the lindens so there's no need for you to pump up the priority to get them to notice it (which historically doesn't work incidentally, the number of votes is more compelling according to several Lindens).
Cliff: I'm not saying that's my understanding of the issue, I'm saying that that one line being included in the act may be what the Labs are trying to prevent--that yes, a simple depiction of a virtual child does not automatically equal pedophilic representation (which is, I also believe, the whole point behind this issue in the first place), but that that virtual child seen in context with anything not automatically 'age-appropriate', per se, or involving sexualized behavior, may equal pedophilic representation and as such be actionable. Whether said child exists or not, in 'real' form.
And the last thing the Lindens want is to be taken to court. Again. That being said--the celebrations will be held on PG, not Mature sims (which is a separate problem, but one I won't deal with here). By and large, even with the invitation of the 'celebration of diversity' the Lindens pitched on this, most exhibits, if not all, should comply with being 'all ages friendly' and at least generally inoffensive. So why were the child avatars of SL not allowed to participate in the celebration of the culture they are, in fact, participating in by remaining participants in Second Life as a whole? And thus, we're back to why this issue exists in the first place. Because for many of us this issue is severely impacting our ability to interact with the grid, and Linden Labs as a whole (because I'm firmly convinced creating an atmosphere of fear and mistrust causes just as much a halt to service as actual server failure). Emilly, people are putting too much weight into this celebration then if they're letting it define their entire SL expereince, I'm guessing that many residents don't even know or don't even care about the festivities (I know I didn't know until this issue came up on the forums), yes this is unfortunate, yes this is yet another unfair marginalization of of the child SL community, you will not get any argument from me on that however this is not LL preventing you from being on the grid or even being at the event just submitting your own build which with all the publicity now about LL's discrimination you'll probably get more space and more people visiting your alternate celebration.
Hey Gordon..thanks for the clarification of what many of us have long suspected...that no matter what priority we give things here, it doesn't matter. I'd sort of assumed that, but it's interesting to get it confirmed by someone who actually does seem to have contact with the gods....
I'm guessing your being sarcastic, I don't have contact with them I just have way too much free time on my hands to browse JIRA comments. If I can find the link I'll post it here or send it to you but I believe the reasoning was that anyone can change the priority so they pay more attention to their internal priority (even to the point of changing this priority to match their original) if they've imported it into their private JIRA or exported from there however votes are a general measure of community support for a measure.
Gordon, thanks again. Now we know how much the votes mean also...given this has more votes than I've ever seen in this amount of time, and the issue has been live for 3 days now, and still not a single public word from on high, I think the worth of JIRA is amply proven.
Personally..I'm pretty sure that if I opened a JIRA issue to tell them their headquarters was burning down, they'd all die in the blaze...no offense... Cliff, unfortunately I agree, in a scale of 1-10 on how Lindens listen to their customers I think they're at -12 but there's not much that can really be done about it except to keep trying and hope that they pay attention.
Damn Gordon..you win. I agree. See what being reasonable and quick with responses gets you? Agreement and support. Now if only the Lindens would heed your shining example and march forth into the sunshine...
(only mildly sarcastic, and aimed at LL, not you Gordon. Your good natured and rational responses really do have me agreeing with you...and..note that I never actually pushed the priority back up...only questioned why you were pushing it back down....) This is very sad. As it says on the main Second Life.com page....
Second Life, is an online 3d world "imagined" and "created" by its "Residents" They supply you with the options to make child avatars and furrys then tell you you cant come as those to celebrate SL's 5th birthday??? Thats just sad and pathetic "While it is true that people from these groups can log in, they CANNOT attend unless they wish to risk getting their account banned.", you actually believe LL would ban your account for attending SL5B as a child avatar?
As was noted in the description of this JIRA: "Strangely enough, documentation on ageplay as found on the secondlife official blog dated november 13 2007 stated: 'Please note it does not violate this policy merely to have a child-like avatar. It is not our intent to banish child-like avatars in and of themselves.'" Just because they cannot currently create content representative of their community for the celebration does not mean they cannot attend, or would be banned for attending in a child avatar, that is just plain silly. Harleen is right, they are not telling people in child av's that they cannot attend and said that soon after the original announcement due to fears that it might be the case it's just that they can't submit a build this year.
<i>they are not telling people in child av's that they cannot attend</i>
Of course not. Like always, everyone is welcoming to spend money and up the SL5B traffic like the sheep they are. Fck that! No taxation without representation. 'which is why it's only issues like this that get people here to comment and vote. Most of us have long ago given up on action ..or even response. Note you had to go to an inworld meeting...and even then they admitted never looking at it...when it's had more votes and watchers than any other issue in months. Business as usual.'
Cliff Commons, maybe because we talked to people? And if I talked to them, I noticed that:
I find myself when encountering bugs, unless I find them critical, I give up even before trying to find the correct issue on JIRA to vote on. What's critical for me at the moment: glow (and thus everything I see) still broken in the normal client, RC does not do snapshots above screensize without ugly black stripes. I went to look for those. But I think this can compared to RL cars maybe? Except for a few, people don't mind how they function. They just want them to function a) correctly and b) fast so they can get to where they need to be and do what they feel they should be doing? The issues with the most views at the moment are probably the '25 groups one' (took Lindens over 1000 votes and a blogpost from Hamlet Au before Robin chose to respond) Harleen Gretzky , thank you for posting about the bug triage. I'm looking forward for an official statement. Then at least all those communities know for sure where they stand. I think the bug might be starting to break the blog too? From http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/05/20/calling-all-cultures-to-the-second-life-5th-birthday-celebration/#comment-608752
there was supposed to be a posting Monday on this issue and I do not see it on my screen. Do I need to clear the SL cache first? Returning status to Critical.. because the nature of this jira entry is specifically critical of Linden Lab policy.
crit- i- cal (krĭt'ĭ-kəl) pronunciation 1. Inclined to judge severely and find fault. Though I would also support "Showstopper" in that if this issue remains un-addressed, it has the potential to "Stop the show". (and it seems clear that voters desire to "stop the show" from proceeding in it's current configuration) For completeness, here are the Jira Definitions of Showstopper and Critical: Showstopper Critical Frankly, either seems appropriate. This issue IS a "most severe: and "confirmed" issue that "demands immediate attention from Linden Lab".. it is ALSO a Jira entry about "missing content", "greatly reduced performance" (by the PR department and LL Policy as a whole), and I would argue that it may be an expression of "Memory Leaks" (in that LL can not collectively seem to remember their own event theme when determining who can participate). Kara spengler,
I have been waiting for that post too. Everyone, There is no law in the US that prohibits an adult from dressing up as a child in public. Think Halloween. Think adult actors playing children's roles in the movie industry; it is very commonplace. The line is crossed in the US when a RL adult gets sexually involved with a RL child in public or in private. Between consenting adults, behind closed doors, any adult can dress up as any age they might choose and have a sexual relationship with another consenting adult as long as it remains in the bedroom behind closed doors. However, if that private act becomes public through any form of image representation it opens a whole new can of legal worms. Personally I have no interest in ever wearing a child's avatar and role playing a child. But I see no reason for banning adults from role playing children and participating in the SL5B builds as long as the content of the builds have no relationship to sex.
I do not think you want to go down the road of making this JIRA about changing LL policy as seen on this comment they would be apt to just close it: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-197?focusedCommentId=14179#action_14179
WorkingOnIt Linden - 11/May/07 08:49 AM So, closing this, respectfully pending we have a proper place so we can handle such requests appropriately. Winter I said I wouldn't change it if it stayed off showstopper so I won't but I disagree with it being anything but major for the numerous reasons I have given in my comments above. Nobody has given a good reason why it should be anything above normal other then the fact that they dislike that LL isn't inviting them to submit a build at their celebration.
FYI: I suggest keeping the display on comments or changes depending on what you want to see and not all, all is so large that it takes forever to load. I'm not going to say it should be resolved just yet but from http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/06/03/sl5b-birthday-expanded-and-new-submission-deadlines/
"All exhibits, in substance and form, are PG on Linden Land. Any Resident can submit an application to exhibit. A team of Lindens and Resident organizers will review the applications, and if accepted, builders can be in any avatar form they choose (provided they are within PG guidelines). " <s>... So it looks like you won although I'll feel much better once a linden pops up and specifically confirms that.</s> "@1, @8, @17: anyone means anyone, as long as it's accordance with PG standards." That was in response to the question if it meant even child AV's resolving per the above full reversal by LL to allow any groups or avatars as long ad the build itself is PG.
I am afraid that I must re-open this issue, as "Fixed" means that a fix has been confirmed public, and in this case it has not explicitly been confirmed. It was always the case that child av groups could submit entries, but it was said that they would be rejected. I just do not see a sufficient public indication of this fix, though of course I would be very happy if it could be closed forthwith.
What defines a child avatar anyway? I don't think it's personality because most of us in SL act like a kid from time to time. It's not really clothes. I've seen lots of adult-size avatars wearing children's clothing designs. That leaves only one thing. Height. I understand the average male avatar is 7' and the average female is 6'7" so here's the solution to the problem. LL should take back it's child-avatar wording and simply ban any avatar under 6' from building for SL5B.
The blog has their response. Went up minutes ago. They will allow displays as long as they are PG. LL and Residents will review the applicants together.
As far as I know, this comment of Everett Linden's has not yet been explicitly rescinded:
http://www.massively.com/2008/05/30/calling-all-cultures-not-any-more/2#c12403549 "...Child avatars are welcome at the celebration. However, we do respectfully decline the submissions we received to create exhibits for the event. ..." None of the Linden responses have said that the above is no longer in effect. The blog post trumps Everett's statement.
I suggest a child exhibit be entered and we see if it is approved. Katt Linden Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 1:49 PM @49 Jacek You have spent a great deal of time writing on this issue in the past few days, and I'm glad to be able to let you know that you are incorrect in your worry. Along with everyone else, child avatars are welcome to submit exhibits, and Everett addressed where the line is drawn in defining acceptable exhibits: "@0 everettlinden Says: @1, @8, @17: anyone means anyone, as long as it's accordance with PG standards. " Anyone. Thanks!
Looks like this issue is fixed. Can we close it now ? The blog post would trump Everett's statement if it in any way contradicted Everett's statement. It does not. Aside from reiterating the overall change from Mature to PG, it says nothing at all about what applications will be accepted. They could easily have addressed this if they chose; as it stands, there are absolutely no grounds for positing a change in position.
Edited to note that Katt has, in fact, addressed this in the comments to the blog post, and is now claiming that kid exhibits will be accepted. Might have been nice if they'd said so in the first place, but okay. Pending reports on what does actually get accepted, it looks like this particular issue may be resolved. Feel free to reopen if they don't follow through on this but until there is evidence to the contrary I'm resolving this as it appears to be fixed.
Reopening as there has not been an official Linden response on the JIRA as well as evidence of child-av builds being admitted into the SL5B project.
I'd bet almost anything your not going to get the former if your expecting to denounce that post on massively and doubly so if you expect a post on the JIRA about it (it took hundred of pissed off residents to get them to even blog about it) however they have stated several times on the comments and replied in the affirmative several times to comments that anyone can as long as it's a pg build (and knowing previous builds from the child av group I'd guess it's more likely to be a G rated build anyway. The latter you probably will get confirmation of eventually but standard procedure is generally to resolve when there's a fix then reopen if there's continuing issues which is how it's done on issues on this JIRA every day and has worked well so far.
I am confidant that you can consider this JIRA closed.
Thanks for caring so much about Second Life. – Katt Linden Hi everyone
As the one who had the idea of Kids5B as reaction of LLs first decision of not allowing contributions of the kids community, I'd like to thank each and everyone out there, residents and from LL, who showed us support in any way. The ammount of support, the offers of help and the donations are overwhelming and showed us, that the original idea of Second Life of "Your World, Your Imagination" is still alive. Now as I see it we are allowed to present ourselfs, and not just by "a build made by people who happen to be kid avatars" but by really presenting the kid avatars. This is great news, and it restored lots of trust that was lost already in LL. The only problem now is, that we already did an amazing amount of work within the last few days. Of course, some people could say now "You should have just waited a few days." Well, with such a close deadline that wasn't possible. For myself, I'm happy about the turn of decision and show my deepest respect to those who stood up for us. I know that there will be other contributions from within the kids community for SL5B. For Kids5B it seems the way to go is to offer the whole project as contribution (I still have to talk this through with some others, just wanted this comment into the blog before the comments are closed - I am not the one making single decisions). We would be present at SL5Bs "official" place with a small information stand (as example with a 3rd sculpty model of our 2 or maybe even 3 SIMs) and staff to present us. These are my first thoughts after catching up with the nights happenings. Thanks again for all the support. Danny In my humble opinion this JIRA should not be declared "fixed" until after SL5B. It is still unknown whether the applications of kid avatar artists will be accepted or not. I myself applied for a build several days ago and did not get any reply whatsoever until now.
Also I want to say that the blog post about the whole mess came pretty late and lacks an awareness for how insulting theiswhole mess was for a large portion of SL's userbase. Which is the reason for my account staying downgraded to "Basic" for now. A sad state of affairs. Sigh.
Just to Clarify, Child Avatars may Apply and the Applications will be 'screened' and if they pass our PG Policy will be accepted, we've already worked with one Resident to accept her application.
BDSM and Gor are non negotiable, for obvious reasons. The PG Policy includes but is not limited to; No Nudity (Male or Female, a nipple is a nipple) : D @Meghan: I am not sure what you mean by "obvious reasons" as it is debatable whether BDSM is by itself non-PG.
I regularly hang out at a place that has several people into BSDM .... but is kid-friendly too (it even has a kid-safe sign). Ironically, the two groups get along just fine and look out for each other. It is not the inclinations of people, it is their actions. For example, one of the BDSM people sitting on a pillow at someone else's feet (no chains or ropes or such) just looks like the person wants to sit near the ground. I have no experience with people into Gor, but if they can do something within PG guidelines, they should apply. Again, it is not the people but the actions. "No Nudity (Male or Female, a nipple is a nipple) : D "
Are you kidding?Unable to render embedded object: File (? That's not "PG", that's "G") not found. So men can't go shirtless? To do so is "mature" instead of "PG"? What a load of horse puckey. The more I hear about the people making the decisions on this event, the more I realize they are complete [censored]. "Meghan Dench - 07/Jun/08 12:34 PM" - sorry, a little confusion, can you confirm that you are actually speaking on behalf of Linden Lab here?
Have to agree: "no topless males" isn't even "G". I'm not sure
And if the BDSM or Gorean folks can produce a PG display, what the heck. They might of course not want to bother sanitizing themselves that much, but best not to judge in advance, eh?
On the other hand, accepting kid-AV things as long as they meet the new criteria (and I'm sure they will) is clearly the right thing to do here. (And imho requiring the officially-subsidized birthday celebration to be PG or even beyond is clearly the wrong thing. But oh well!) Kids5B will have a beach area, and last time I checked a very PG RL beach, boys and men run around shirtless at beaches. Hm. Maybe we should give out 1920s style full body swim suits?
"No Nudity (Male or Female, a nipple is a nipple) : D
No Chains, Ropes or being bound." http://www.kids-n-fun.com/kleurplaten/peterpan/peterpan13.gif Far from resolved, now no photos of Kids and Adults together? What of the huge contingent of those who RP as families?
Huh? When/where did the "no photos of kids and adults together" come about? Does this have to do with something told to Mari? I know her exhibit was photo-based...
I was just about to ask that, please source this (preferably somewhere other than Prok's blog which is where I found out about this)
Stephen Venkman's "Family" photo series was denied according to this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stonebender/2572302588 The comments also quote Dusty Linden as saying "If you can agree:not to show kid AVs with Adult AVs (unless specifically OK'd by LL)and that LL reserves the right to adjust images, themes, etc. to address this concern..." about another application. Shoshana Epsilon, the head of the art department, confirms it here: And as usual, Massively follows the development: LL, please confirm rumours that the Virtual Von Trapp's live music performance was cancelled due to unknown technical issues.
If they are trying to avoid issues by these steps it's backfiring badly... the fall out on the web is bringing in more bad publicity than any "for the children" screaming politicians ever would
I wouldnt attend this event now if they were to announce free tier for the month to anyone that shows up. Its turning into a PR disaster of their own making. The more restrictive they make these public events, the more of their 'deviant' customer base (a very high percentage if you add in kid avs, Goreans, BDSM, furries, etc) start looking for alternatives, downgrading accounts and telling their friends that SL is not worth their effort . According to the TOS iintolerance is not to be tolerated, but LL is the biggest offender, and unfortunately there's nothing we can do about it.
Odd, Hope, you're making it sound as if child avatars and furs among others are the reason why SL5B is not working across most platforms. As I understood it, it was the initial ban against child avatars (with nothing said about furs, though Goreans and BDSM enthusiasts were mentioned) that started SL5B failing across so many OS platforms.
I for one do appreciate that you notice the intolerance factor affecting full ability to utilize SL5B. But it's disheartening to think that anyone believes child avatars, themselves, are what went wrong with this proposed celebration. I wasnt blaming any one group at all. I dont consider children deviants, but obviously LL does (or did before they reversed the decision lumping them in with us nasty Goreans and BDSM people) I used to have a child av, I think they are wonderful ways to express yourself in rp and I applaud the ones who have the guts to keep doing it despite all the hype of late. I simpy dont appreciate the hypocrisy in the ToS proclaiming 'how tolerant we are' and then they exclude certain groups from a major celebration. I'm glad they reversed the decision on children and certain art exhibits, but it took some major bad PR and a lot of arm twisting to achieve it. I
I'm closing this issue, the confusion about the policies has been cleared up and nothing more as far as I can see will be done, this Jira issue is not needed and a waste of recourses.
Also to clear up my comment, I said No Nudity (Male or Female a nipple's a nipple) (Please note I've not Closed the issue, just Resolved it) Eck! Note to Support / Devs: I spoke to Linden Lab on the phone about an error on the ToS, and gave them this link instead of the link to the Jira issue for that error. Sorry lol
This issue is resolved.
There are now some 20 sims with over 650 exhibits, from a wide variety of Residents. Everyone was invited to submit builds, as long as they were PG, regardless the type of avatar a Resident wears. – Katt Linden |
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Bug
Resolved
Critical
Missing Cultures & Communities from SL5B
