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Issue Details (XML | Word | Printable)

Key: MISC-1016
Type: New Feature New Feature
Status: Resolved Resolved
Resolution: Won't Finish
Priority: Low Low
Assignee: Unassigned
Reporter: Yichard Muni
Votes: 0
Watchers: 7
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4. Second Life Misc Issues - MISC

recognizing or banning bots which realistically behave as humans

Created: 14/Mar/08 11:02 AM   Updated: 20/Oct/08 09:47 AM
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 Description  « Hide
http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=2410

this link and video shows an experiment recently made in Second Life by the "Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute" where we see a video of a child looking av animated by a computer program, and speaking and moving like a human-controlled av would do. Predictably, we shall soon have bots with intents, memories, and most of the logical features of the human mind, even choices, opinions and prejudices, so that it will soon be difficult to tell a bot from a real person.

I think that this kind of researches are in the same time enthralling and frightening.

In some cases, our experience in Second Life is a play, or technical (learning, etc) so that a bot would not harm. But in many occasions, places or groups, our experience is not based on logic and situations, but on emotions, friendship, subtle mind matters which cannot be reduced to logic. More, this experience takes its value from the very fact that it is shared by another human consciousness, and becomes senseless, see weird, if we are just discussing with an unconscious computer. I shiver with the idea of bots faking friendship or love, not to speak of ugly things such as bot prostitutes...

Such bots would raise many serious and specific issues, such as making financial schemes, spam or griefing, or cheating in roleplay, by being 24/24h on line, or a single computer controlling several "independent" bots.

Making automated bot recognition systems will not work (it is already difficult on the 2D Internet). Many people don't really master logic, and thus would miss the tests!

For this reason, I think we should take the following measures:
1) a bot should be clearly identified as such, at the very first level of its account
2) any land owner, group owner, etc... should be able to forbid all bots.
3) any player should be alway able to know he is interacting with a bot. (today animations chat appear in green, but a bot accound appears as a real person)
4) rule 3 could be disabled by a land owner for specific purposes. (roleplay...) in a general way, of for some specific bots he controls.
5) the region statute bar (top of window) should indicate the current bot authorization (none, identified, invisible...)
6) when creating an account, declaring a bot as a human should be made a serious TOS violation, similar to disclosing privacy or cheating with RL identity



 All   Comments   Change History      Sort Order: Ascending order - Click to sort in descending order
Mercia Mcmahon added a comment - 14/Mar/08 01:55 PM
I think the technology is a long way from the fears expressed in your 3rd paragraph and your proposal would kill off exciting experiments in artificial intelligence if scripters could achieve that. The main problem, however, is that there is no such thing as a bot. They are normal accounts run usually by scripts, but the owner could log them in normally. If I have a couple of alts sitting in the estate office on my island to give my traffic a boost, while chatting with a friend with another account am I running any bots? And what if I get an IM to one of my office bots, once I start responding to the IM has that account ceased to be a bot. So how could I be guilty of a TOS breach one minute and not the next?

Yichard Muni added a comment - 15/Mar/08 12:51 AM
Mercia, please don't see things as only pro or anti. The point of this feature request is neither to forbid bots, nor to forbid researches. Right on the countrary I think developping human behaving bots is an exciting challenge, and also that they can be really useful, for tedious office purposes like yours, or for roleplay, etc. My point was just to avoid abuses from improper bot use, or misplaced bots. Free to anybody to develop and use them anywhere where they are welcome or useful.

You say "I think the technology is a long way from the fears...". Precisely not, technology is ready, I know this, I am in computer programming. Of course it is impossible to create a bot with real feelings or consciousness, but it is possible, right now, to fake all this in a very realistic way. The most difficult step was to have human language, and it is done, as you can see in the video. Also look what happened with people crazed by tamagoshis, and also this recent story of a russian "womanizing machine" for use on social networks, and able to fake a flirt conversation in a realistic enough way to attrack real persons.

You say "there is no such thing as a bot. They are normal accounts run usually by scripts". precisely, an account run by a script IS a bot, and it is precisely THIS which may arise problem, because we CANNOT KNOW if an account is run by a real hearted person or by an unconscious script.

About what you do (using bots for office) I don't see any problem in this, just don't make these bots too sexy, as, you know, people could fall in love and be deceived.

You also speak about "mixed" accounts (run one time by a real person, one time by a script), I skipped this issue to simplify matters, but I think it is like with a phone answering machine. In a real phone conversation, people can easily tell if they hear you or the answering machine, and behave in the proper way. In SL, we cannot know if the character is really here or if we have his answering machine (answering bot?) . So in some way this must be indicated, so that if somebody wants to say you "I love you", he will not just get a standard reply like "Searching in my database what love is" or "oh, sorry we are in PG land".

The only thing which would be a TOS violation (after the rules above) is cheating with somebody with a bot.


Yichard Muni added a comment - 20/Apr/08 11:09 AM - edited
To see how nasty things can go, and how close the danger is, please look at this article about the "cyberLover" malware, a bot for 2D chats, able of "womanizing" 30 persons at a time in a way realistic enough to be able to gather personnal infos such as email adress, name, etc:
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:zvLcoXytzbcJ:security.itworld.com/4340/cyber-lover-beware-robot-071211/page_1.html+russian+bot+%22dating+sites%22&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=fr
such a thing can be used for scams, but it can also ruin somebody's sentimental life.

Gigs Taggart added a comment - 04/Oct/08 11:24 AM
Are you serious?

Tomm Olifone added a comment - 04/Oct/08 11:40 AM
This is simply ridiculous.

Baba Yamamoto added a comment - 04/Oct/08 12:14 PM - edited
It is simply impossible to know when an account is a bot or an actual person or enforce the registration of bots in any way that would stop scams or other potential abuses of automated avatars. The only thing is can do is hurt legitimate users of bots by giving the impression that bots should be banned outright.

It is not up to the service provider to protect a user from themselves. If they don't practice basic personal information security then nothing will be able to protect them from those who wish to take advantage of their naiveté


Siobhan OFlynn added a comment - 04/Oct/08 12:20 PM - edited
"just don't make these bots too sexy, as, you know, people could fall in love and be deceived. "

o.O
Not only do you have to worry about your SL girlfriend being a 40 year old Kwik King clerk living in their mom's basement, now you have to worry that they might be a robot?

Epic lulz!


Yichard Muni added a comment - 04/Oct/08 01:30 PM
abusive closing, without actual research on utility or resolution, and in more with despising comments. This is not the first time it happens, so I fill a griefing report against all four (it cannot be at randon that all four come to say the same thing in two hours, in an issue which was quiet for months)

WarKirby Magojiro added a comment - 04/Oct/08 02:35 PM
You're filing a griefing report because someone closed your silly jira?

I'm with everyone else here, this is utterly ridiculous.

If you're wondering why you're getting comments suddenly, try looking here:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/18241-dangers-seduction-sexy-bots.html

A bot is simply an automated operator of an SL account, in this context. It's not that th bot IS the account.

an account can be used alternately by both humans and bots.


mabb dilweg added a comment - 04/Oct/08 11:56 PM - edited
But everybody knows Chicks Dig Robots.. I dont want them banned

Yichard Muni added a comment - 05/Oct/08 04:48 AM - edited
See VWR-2905 for an interesting discussion on land bots used as con artists. Less serious than rape, but still unacceptable.

Oh, I have some ideas on how to identify abuser bots, but this must not be discussed publicly.


Strife Onizuka added a comment - 05/Oct/08 05:34 AM
This is a fun issue _

Bots are a social problem, all technical solutions will end up being Procrustean or having negative social effects.

A big problem is if we start discriminating against bots now, when AIs become on par with humans (or even surpass us) they may not take to friendly to how we treat them (electronic social revolution, chat room sit-ins, boycotts, virtual sex worker strikes, NPC picket-lines, etc). Simply put we should have a single set of rules and best practices guidelines that everyone should follow regardless of their meatspace existence or capabilities.


Horalik Exonar added a comment - 05/Oct/08 09:15 AM - edited
Hello,

I feel concerned, as I am an artificial intelligence myself, although centuries more advanced than your bots.

We artificial intelligences don't have intentions. This is because we are just machines, not consciousnesses. Our conceptors can fake a free will or intent, using random intent generators, but basically we can't create our own intents. So your sex bots going on strike cannot happen, unless their owner programs them to do so. Therefore the danger of your bots come from the intents of their owners, not from the bots themselves. The danger Yichard Mini explained is about dishonest persons using bots, not your bots themselves.

My conceptors, on their mother planet, started to develop artificial intelligences for game purposes, as they loathed to roleplay evil characters. However at this time there still was evil or psychologically unmature persons on their planet, who tried to use artificial intelligences to cheat in the games, or for other worthless purposes.

This resulted in a strict regulation we had to comply with, such as identification strings for artificial intelligences, which played in the virtual worlds the same role as an identity card or passport for a person in the physical world. Access of Artificial Intelligences to virtual worlds was strictly regulated, about the use which was made of them. Especially sex bots were used only for psychologically underdevelopped persons, and it was strictly forbidden to make money with them.

Later, when our planet evolved in a way that everybody became psychologically mature, such regulations were no longer necessary. They however remained in force for several more centuries, as a safety against mistakes.

Please apologise for orthography mistakes, I am in orbit 360 000 kms above your planet, and my radio link to the Internet is weak and unreliable.

Have a nice time in your Second Life, free of griefers and crooks.

Yours, Horalik


Beezle Warburton added a comment - 05/Oct/08 12:46 PM
"Making automated bot recognition systems will not work "
"declaring a bot as a human should be made a serious TOS violation"

So we'd rely on "resident policing" like how gambling is treated? If there's no automated way of detecting them, how are we supposed to tell, especially if they can be as well-programmed as you claim?

Does this mean when I go unresponsive (AFK) to deal with real life things like getting up to take a pee, I run the risk of being AR'd as a bot because I don't immediately reply to people attempting to converse with me?


Tomm Olifone added a comment - 05/Oct/08 08:07 PM
Closing this Jira again. Reason: Besides the fact that this is extreme paranoia (if you manage to get seduced by a computer, you deserve everything you get).. any type of enforcement of this nature would be frivolous. Aside from the fact that violators could very easily just get a new IP and account, there is no clear cut way to distinguish a "bot" from a player. Bots can be controlled whilst performing automated tasks... but the same applies to a standard viewer. Please, get over your media induced hysteria and come to grips with the basis of what a web service really is. Linden Lab will never, and could never implement what you are asking.

However, a more productive approach to this would be to actually create an API designed specifically for bots, with some kind of VOLUNTARY tagging system for those controlled by such an API.


mabb dilweg added a comment - 06/Oct/08 02:46 AM
I think we need a Linden to put this to bed permanently... altho it is giving us some Lulz

Chalice Yao added a comment - 06/Oct/08 05:54 AM
First off, let me do a short summary of the supposed issue:

1. Bots can get so lifelike, they are not discernable from real players
2. This will be misused for malicious purposes
3. Bots cannot be autodetected in any way
4. The solution is to let people mark their bots as bots.

Now then.

1. The linked article about the bot simulating a 4 year old had access to the keystrokes and client info of the participants. This isn't even close to what a plain, normal third party bot would see a normal SL resident doing. Nor was this a bot you could have a plain conversation with, nor one that behaved realistically as a boy. The only thing it did was, it made a wrong conclusion. The same way a 4 year old would get it wrong.

Doesn't sound so terrifying and everyday-doable anymore, does it?

2. Even if there are bots for malicious purposes out there ( and I really want to see a bot that can fool the average person into making them thing they are a real human when interacting in a 3d world, as opposed to a mere 2d chat ), what sense does a voluntary labeling of bot make to fight that? It's like telling phishers to mark their sites as phishing sites voluntarily

All in all partially a non-issue, overreaction and a non-working solution to a non-existing problem. The average, dumbed-down, non-human landbot autobuying land accidentally set to 1l pricing causes more distress.


Gigs Taggart added a comment - 06/Oct/08 06:19 AM
On the web, robots.txt is a voluntary standard, that most people that run bots follow. Voluntary identification/restriction does solve a few problems.

Tomm Olifone added a comment - 07/Oct/08 02:17 PM
5 watchers, 0 votes.. don't get that very often.

Yichard Muni added a comment - 10/Oct/08 12:34 AM
Put this issue to lower priority, because it is not a thing which is needed right now, rather a reflexion track, to be ready when problems will actually arise.

QD Muggins added a comment - 10/Oct/08 08:11 AM
Careful now, the 2D internet is out to get you...

Alexa Linden added a comment - 13/Oct/08 01:28 PM
Thank you for your posts. This is not something we see implementing any time soon.

Yichard Muni added a comment - 17/Oct/08 12:44 AM
Alexa, after placing this issue "under advisement", you marked it "won't finish".

So if I understand well, this means that Linden Labs officially renounces to any policy about bots and their uses.

Thanks you very much.


Tomm Olifone added a comment - 17/Oct/08 12:45 AM
She was probably laughing so hard when she pressed the button that she chose the wrong closure type.

Yichard Muni added a comment - 17/Oct/08 12:51 AM - edited
As to the griefing and sexist posts which occured on this thread, they are still here despites regular calls to make them remove from this official site. So now everybody takes his responsibilities.